Brendan: 00:04 That free trade agreement offers that extra little bit of risk protection. It's like signing a legal document. Being able to say, "Well, these are the problems I foresee. Let's try to solve those problems, put them on paper and have both countries sign it." Narrator: 00:24 You're listening to the Why and How Podcast, produced by the Ontario Agricultural College of the University of Guelph. Where we look to answer the big questions in agriculture, food, and the environment through casual conversation rooted in research. Josh Moran: 00:42 Hello everyone, and welcome back to the Why and How Podcast. I am your host Josh Moran. And today we are joined by, once again, best friend of the show, Jordan Terpstra. Jordan Terpstra: 00:51 Hey Josh, how's it going today? Josh Moran: 00:52 Fantastic. Thanks again for coming out and making time for these. Jordan Terpstra: 00:57 Hey, no problem, we're best friends. Josh Moran: 00:58 That's right. Jordan Terpstra: 00:58 So I'm going to handle my end of the bargain. So what do we doing today, who are we talking with? Josh Moran: 01:02 So today we're talking to a good friend of mine actually, Brendan McDougal, a master student in the FARE Department. Could you maybe tell us a little bit about what it is you're studying? Maybe a brief little Coles Notes version of that? Brendan: 01:15 Sure, I love to do that. First of all, hey, Jordan. You told me your name was Jordan, but I didn't quite connect the dots on Jordan Terpstra. I think I've emailed you a bunch, but it's good to finally meet you in person. Jordan Terpstra: 01:25 Yeah, absolutely. Brendan: 01:26 So just had that epiphany here sitting at the mic, so oh well, we'll put it all in. Josh Moran: 01:30 Organic moment for the podcast. Brendan: 01:31 That's right. That's right. Jordan Terpstra: 01:33 Wholesome. Brendan: 01:34 Keep it wholesome. Yeah, so my research, it focuses on agrifood trade. And in Canada specifically, and how our free trade agreements have impacted those for better or for worse. So I'm trying to dive into more of the nitty gritty, and add some perspective and understanding to what we're looking at. So my research focuses on estimating the intensive and extensive margins in our trade, and what those are as a proxy for essentially the volume or variety of products. So when we say trade increased, well, are we trading more products or are we trading the same products but more of them? So that's kind of what we're looking for and able to tease out some results from that. Josh Moran: 02:16 Exciting, exciting stuff. So again, you're in the FARE Department, correct? Which is- Brendan: 02:22 That's right. Josh Moran: 02:23 Food, agriculture and resource economics. Again, another body of the University of Guelph, the OAC, specifically. So maybe just a really, really technical work you're doing, lots of big terms. I'm just going to ask you a few questions in regards to what some of these terms actually mean. And I think that everyone thinks that they know what trade is, but could you maybe explain what trade really means and what it is? Brendan: 02:45 Yeah, sure. Absolutely. So trade, in a general sense, is when we create something here in our economy and sell it to someone else in a different country. And what that does is it brings money from that other country, wealth from that other country, back into ours. At the same time, we import products from other countries that we couldn't otherwise get, and they're often at a lower price. So the reason we kind of do trade is to help our domestic producers sell their products to more people and get more money, but at the same time help our domestic consumers get access to more products at a cheaper price and enhance both the producer and the consumer. Josh Moran: 03:27 Yeah, it makes sense. And contextually speaking, does Canada import or export more? Is there kind of a balance there, or what does that look like? Brendan: 03:34 Yes. So from my understanding, Canada typically runs a bit of a trade deficit, which means that we import more than we export, and that's in general. In the agrifood sense, we do export more than we import. However, both are trending higher and higher as Canada becomes more and more integrated with our world partners. Jordan Terpstra: 03:56 Awesome. Josh Moran: 03:57 And some of your work is, you're specifically looking at what's called a free trade agreement. Could you maybe touch on what a free trade agreement is? Brendan: 04:05 Yeah, sure. So whenever I talk about my research to more academics, and I use the word free trade agreement? They blow up in my face and get a little angry because there's no such thing as an actual free trade agreement. When you see free trade, that means no barriers, no tariffs, nothing of any means to impede two countries from exchanging goods, but that's not the world we live in. Free trade is kind of a political term. So what Canada actually has is regional trade agreements as defined by the world trade organizations. And what those are is agreements between one, two or several countries in a region to lower tariffs for certain products, or lower quality standards or something like this that allow more products to cross the border. Josh Moran: 04:52 And these tariffs, like what exactly is a tariff? Brendan: 04:54 So a tariff is essentially a tax on the importation of a good. So you've seen it a lot if you've been following the news in the US. Tariffs between the US and China. So what the US will do, for example, is slap a... Let's do the Chinese example. China will slap a big tariff on US soybeans. So say the tariff's 30%, so every dollar of soybeans that comes in, the government's taking 30% of that value. And that, in turn, results in a higher price for Chinese consumers of soybeans, because they have to pay that additional 30% tax when they bring it in. Josh Moran: 05:31 And what are these free trade agreements basically do? Does that mean that you can... You are eliminating these barriers to an extent or up to a certain point, or a quote or a limit, or what's the deal with that? Brendan: 05:44 Well, there's a... The great thing about them is they're very flexible and they can be whatever people kind of agree to them being. So what I mean is, sometimes you can have just lower tariffs. You can agree to lower tariffs. There's also another kind of a protection measure called import quotas, for example. So I can only import a certain amount of products at a free trade amount, and then a tariff would kick in. So an example is in Canadian dairy, there is actually for... Let's take an example, and I don't know the exact numbers off the top of my head, but say cheddar cheese. Brendan: 06:21 We can import 2000 tons of cheddar cheese a year from the US completely tariff free, free trade. But then after 2000 tons of cheddar cheese, you have a 250% tariff that kicks in. And the 2001st ton has a 250% tariff on it. So when importers look at that, they say, "Okay, well what kind of volume can I send to Canada? How close will I get to that 2000 mark? And if I go to 3000, does the tariff kind of average out to around 30%? Okay, I can afford to send those." So things like expanding that import quota, it's another way that you can encourage trade by raising the amount that's coming in tariff free. Josh Moran: 07:06 So that is barriers, but there's also non-trade barriers as well in regards to quality and things like that? Brendan: 07:13 Absolutely, yes. So non-tariff barriers are a particular threat in agriculture. Sanitary measures that can restrict certain food products from entering a country. For example, the European Union has very high standards in what they can import from beef products. If you've been following the news, China found traces of ractopamine in Canadian beef that they were importing, and Europe actually has an outright ban on that product. So although it's not a tariff, the fact that Europe won't let beef that contains ractopamine in it into their country means that Canada has to adjust its production or change the way the system works in order to send those. And sometimes it doesn't make fiscal sense to do so. Josh Moran: 08:00 Was that beef or pork for that? Brendan: 08:02 It was both. Josh Moran: 08:03 It was both? Brendan: 08:03 It was both. I know I have recently attended a beef conference in August in Calgary, and that was a big concern amongst beef producers there. Is the quality standards are different in Europe than they are in Canada, North America. And a lot of producers were... They liked the way that CETA was set up to encourage trade, but there's these barriers that are limiting them productively. They don't know whether to transition production in ractopamine-free and try to serve the Europe market, or keep it with ractopamine and be more competitive in the North American market. Josh Moran: 08:37 Yeah. So it's a game of trade offs? Brendan: 08:39 It's a game of trade offs, and that is a barrier to Canadian exporters around the world. Jordan Terpstra: 08:45 So I'm just curious, so this might be an obvious answer, but why do we have tariffs? Why do those exist? Brendan: 08:51 That's a great question. And the answer I think is they're very political. So you have the... For example, the Canadian dairy industry. I'm from a dairy farm, so I kind of have a little bit of a personal tie here. But that supply management system could not have operated as it does if you have a milk from the US coming unchecked, and the price not artificially elevated across the border. And that allows Canadian producers to kind of artificially raise that price through a supply management scheme. And you can go into whether that's a good thing or a bad thing, but it is political in nature. And it exists in Europe, we're not the only ones who are guilty of this. Brendan: 09:38 So when we go to the table with countries like New Zealand, Australia, Japan, Vietnam for the negotiations for like the TPP, Trans-Pacific Partnership? Everyone has their own kind of protection that exists in their country. And we're just trying to negotiate, "Well, if you let go of some of your protection here, maybe we can let go with some of your protection here." And then try to come to up to an agreement that everyone is okay with. Josh Moran: 10:04 I think of India, in that case with the tariffs on lentils as well. Brendan: 10:07 Yeah, absolutely. Josh Moran: 10:08 In terms of using it as a political tool. Brendan: 10:11 Oh, That's a great example, yes. So India has what... They have reported to the WTO that their tariffs can't go over a certain percentage. Say it's 30% on a lentil tariffs, I think it's higher. Josh Moran: 10:22 It's higher. Brendan: 10:22 But I'm not, so let's say it's 30% for the sake of the argument. But they've had a very... They have a growing population, has a shortage of lentils. So what they've been doing is driving that tariff down to zero, which they're more within their rights to have. And it's better for us, because we can send more lentils there. However, before the Indian election, Prime Minister Modi was trying to support some of the rural incomes in India, those who produce lentils. So by increasing the tariffs on lentils coming in from Canada, he's able to increase the prices on lentils grown domestically in India, and helps support the income from his farmers who might go out to the polls and vote for him because he did something like that. Josh Moran: 11:02 Yeah. Very interesting. So you said specifically your work's looking at extensive and intensive margins. Why would you want to measure that, and what exactly are they? Brendan: 11:12 Yeah, absolutely. So this is the bread and butter of what I'm doing. So the intensive margin, like I said before, is a proxy for the volume of products. And it's just a simple calculation that I'm able to do within my dataset. And the intensive margin rises if Canada exports more volume of the amount of a product that we currently already export to that country. So if we sell 10,000 tons of corn somewhere in Europe, intensive margin will rise. If we start selling 12,000 tons, simple and easy. Brendan: 11:47 The extensive margin refers to the variety of products that we sell. So my study looks at 1,229 different agrifood products, and those include everything from basic raw commodities like corn and soybeans to, can be as specific as beef, frozen in-bone steaks. Stuff like this. It's a very specific dataset. And what we look at in the extensive margin is, if Canada sold 300 of those 1,200 or so products to say Germany in one year, and then 450 to those the next year? Your extensive margin would be larger. And I'm just trying to see if whether or not our free trade agreements expand that variety of products that we sell, or expand the volume of products that we sell or maybe both. Josh Moran: 12:36 And how many free trade agreements is Canada in right now? Brendan: 12:39 So Canada has 14 trade agreements in force. Lots in Latin America, also an agreement with Israel and Jordan. More recently we entered the comprehensive economic trade agreement with the European Union, and we also have a trade agreement, the CPTPP, which is the Trans-Pacific Partnership minus the United States. And that came into force I think in 2018, I should say. So that's another opportunity for Canada to access markets in Asia, outside of China. Josh Moran: 13:14 And as a Canadian consumer, what implications would these agreements have on what maybe I spend in the grocery store, or how much I'm having to put forward to receive these products? Brendan: 13:25 So as a consumer, you're probably not an exporter as a consumer. Of course, you work for- Josh Moran: 13:31 Yeah, I know, no. Brendan: 13:32 So yeah, from an importer standpoint it gives consumers A, cheaper products and B, more access to better products. Josh Moran: 13:41 Diversify. Brendan: 13:42 Yeah. Like the CETA deal, there is provisions in there for French and Italian cheeses, for example. So now me, when I'm drinking my wine and cheese on a Wednesday night, don't have to drink cheese that's limited to Canadian production. I can expand my consumption horizons to more high quality stuff from Europe, at a cheaper price. Before I might've been able to get it, but I'd have to pay a massive tariff on it. So now that's a little more accessible to me and that makes me happier as a consumer. Brendan: 14:14 Even products that are currently in Canada, so say with the new NAFTA agreement that would let a America have better access to Canadian dairy markets. That might drive down the prices of things that are produced in Canada, like chocolate milk or yogurt or some more industrial kind of cheeses. Now I have better access to that. I feel bad that I hammered on the dairy guys here, but- Josh Moran: 14:38 It's a prime example, yeah. Brendan: 14:39 Yeah, Dairy is a very protected industry in Canada, and tends to be the block that stops trade agreements from going through. Josh Moran: 14:48 Yeah. Brendan: 14:48 So concessions made help consumers of dairy products and Canada. Josh Moran: 14:52 Yeah. And again, it's not a black and white thing either. It's a game of trade offs when you talk about these issues fundamentally. So it makes for interesting conversation for sure. And again, it's a prime example of a protected industry. Brendan: 15:07 Absolutely, absolutely. Josh Moran: 15:08 And for farmers then, if you're exporting to a country that does have an FTA in place versus exporting to a country where you don't have one in place, what does that look like? What are some of the key differences you'll see there, or you think you'll see? Brendan: 15:22 It's a risk reward for the farmer knowing that there are kind of legal channels and legal backstops to help protect them when they go to try to make a trade agreement. It just lowers the risk that they can go into that country. What we've seen with China in the canola situation, where canola's being banned out of China. That might be political, and Canadian canola producers and canola exporters might feel that they're being unfairly targeted. Well, since we don't have a free trade agreement with China, the only people we can go to is the World Trade Organization and lodge a complaint. And that might take a couple of years for that litigation to come through and a ruling to be set down. And we're a fairly small player, and three years of depressed canola prices can really hurt Canadian farmers. Brendan: 16:08 So that's kind of a risk to not having that free trade agreement in place. Where if we have a free trade agreement, say with the US, and you saw this in the country of origin labeling case out of the United States. Where they were essentially using country of origin labeling to limit Canadian exports of beef into the US by setting a more stringent laws on how those products needed to be labeled in terms of origin. So we took on a legal process to help Canadian producers reap the benefits, and it was easier to see that they were being unfairly targeted because we were able to point to the NAFTA document instead of going through that WTO channel. Josh Moran: 16:54 Yeah, and we say the WTO a lot. So what does the WTO's role in terms of developing these agreements and these and imposing tariffs and so on and so forth? Brendan: 17:02 Yeah, yep. That's a great question. The WTO is a multinational organization founded by countries coming together and essentially saying, "We want to become more globalized, we want to increase free trade around the world. What kind of standards can we set? What kind of tariffs can we put on? What can everyone agree to here as a huge global institution to help encourage trade in the future?" And that was signed back in 1994 when this organization was first introduced and came into existence. And it acts as a mechanism if there's problems between countries acting in a predatory nature, or using tariffs unfairly. Brendan: 17:45 The WTO can step in and say, "Yes, we're a neutral party. We agree that you are being targeted unfairly and therefore you need reparations." Or, "No, we don't agree with you. You weren't being targeted unfairly. Welcome to the real world." It's that neutral body that helps these big global institutions operate outside of a national [inaudible 00:00:18:08]. Josh Moran: 18:08 Like a referee of sorts? Brendan: 18:09 Yeah, it's like a referee for trade. Actually just a couple of weeks ago, there was a case out of the US that Airbus, they produce commercial jets for airlines to buy. And they were selling jets into the US, and they were subsidizing domestic consumption in Europe. European governments were, and the WTO ruled that under the WTO agreement, you can't do that. So the US was able to actually add retaliatory tariffs on Airbus imports from now on, or until it's the debt's essentially repaid in order to help domestic producers in the US who the WTO felt were predatory. Jordan Terpstra: 18:50 So when you're saying that the world trade organization is like this middle party, who are they actually? Are they just composed of people from different countries, and they come together and then they're this neutral party that- Brendan: 19:03 Yeah, they're comprised of economists and experts from all over the world. The world watches them pretty tightly, and there is consequences to not being in the WTO, so countries do really value their membership in that organization. And value what they have to say, and respect their decisions for the most part. Jordan Terpstra: 19:22 Very cool. So as our conversations continue, I think it's pretty neat that I definitely don't have any of that type of background. But it's interesting because you pretty much have to be a specialist in the economy and markets, and you need to be a numbers guy. And then you also have to know politics a lot, right? Brendan: 19:40 Yeah, yeah. I'm definitely interested in politics and how that plays a role in policy making. We like to think, "Well, we'll just do the math and whatever's the best number, that's the venue we'll go down." But that's absolutely not how the world works. There are special interests, there's groups lobbying. And I think trade was, for me, a really interesting way to combine that political knowledge with your economic knowledge. So yeah, no, that's a really good point Jordan. Josh Moran: 20:08 Now with all this being said, could you say that FTAs are generally a good thing all in all? Or is that maybe too much of a blanket statement? Brendan: 20:16 Yeah, so my research, I do have some preliminary results. And what I find is yes, FTAs are good. And a free trade agreements are good I should say. And there's a whole bunch of research, and they keep improving the stats to actually test this. But I think in general they're good, and I think in general they offer domestic exporters a bit of reassurance. And foreign people who are going to export into Canada, that extra bit of reassurance to actually go ahead and try to enter that market. Because it's a daunting task to try to break into a new market, but there's a lot of upside potential. Brendan: 20:54 Every free trade agreement that Canada has and everyone else has... I think last summer when I did a tally, there was 308 in circulation around the world. So not an insignificant number, and you could imagine the negotiations that went on in NAFTA and how long that took. How long it took to get to the point that- Josh Moran: 21:13 Daunting. Brendan: 21:14 Daunting task. These documents are very complex and they've got a lot in them, and they're all very different. So what my research is looking at is, how does each agreement compare to another agreement? Are there certain agreements that maybe increased the volume because they lower tariffs? Or are there other agreements that increase the variety, because they reduce those non tariff barriers that we were talking about? And that's what I'm looking at, and I'm seeing a lot of mixed results. Some do and some don't in certain products, and not in other products. Be it beef versus oil seeds, be it vegetables versus processed food. There is a lot of stuff going on and that's kind of where you get your politics. And who's lobbying, and are their voices being heard? Jordan Terpstra: 21:59 Maybe this isn't your expertise, but I'm just curious, maybe you can answer this. But say a country like Canada starts to grow a new crop, or introduce a product that they haven't produced before. How does that play a role when it comes to these tariffs and trades, and things like that? Or does that not really happen too often? Brendan: 22:17 I'll speak more on an opinion standpoint with that. Jordan Terpstra: 22:20 Sure, yeah. Brendan: 22:22 Picture yourself being a domestic producer of anything. Say it's lentils, say that we didn't make any lentils in this country. And you looked at India, and you're like, "Wow, that's a growing population. There's growing buying power in that country. I want to start selling lentils into India." Problems, I don't actually know how to grow them, I don't know what my yield can be. I don't really know what my costs are going to be, and I don't know how I'm going to be able to get them, and even if the Indians are going to buy them. Brendan: 22:46 So I got a lot of risk there, that's just off the top of my head, into whether or not I'm going to export to those to India. But then all of a sudden, the Canadian government comes in and says, "Okay, we have a free trade agreement that says India can't have their tariffs more than 15%, we're going to have a tariff rate quota of 20,000 metric tons. So there is going to be free trade demand there. We're going to set up a legal framework in case there's a problem. We're going to give you resources and put trade ambassadors in that country to help domestic producers access those markets, and find contacts in India that will actually buy the lentils." Brendan: 23:25 All that can be negotiated in a free trade agreement, and that gives producers that extra incentive, that reduces risks, those lower costs that might entice them to enter that market. So in terms of growing a new product, it depends on the riskiness of what you're doing. It depends on if you think you can make a return by doing that, and a free trade agreement helps lower the costs of making that happen. At least in theory. Jordan Terpstra: 23:50 Right, so it's not as easy as saying, "I'm going to start growing bananas in Canada," kind of thing. Brendan: 23:53 Yeah, that's right. You can try it, I don't know how it's going to go. But yeah, you can try anything. But that free trade agreement offers that extra little bit of risk protection. It's like signing a legal document, right? Being able to say, "Well these are the problems I foresee, let's try to solve those problems, put them on paper and have both countries sign it." Josh Moran: 24:14 Cool. I remember just talking with you weeks and weeks ago, you brought up the point of Chile. And that the idea of how important timing is when it comes to developing these FTAs, you said in the comparison. So I'm wondering, what sort of impact does getting in early with the country have on extensive and intensive margins and overall trade? Brendan: 24:35 So I think I was talking... It wasn't Chile, it was about Peru and Colombia. Josh Moran: 24:38 Oh, my bad. Brendan: 24:39 But I do know what you're talking about. Yeah, so if you look on a map or where those two countries are, they literally border each other. They have very similar GDPs, they have very similar populations, they have very similar culture. And when I found in my research on beef when I went to this beef country was, we exported a lot more to Columbia than we did to Peru. I'm like, "Why is that, these countries aren't that different? Is there something going on in the free trade agreement? Well, they look the same, I don't really know what's going on here. They came into into force within about two years of each other, So they're pretty close. I don't know what's going on here." Brendan: 25:17 And then I dug a little deeper. So we went into Columbia before we went into Peru, and the United States, another big beef producer, exporter went into Peru before they went into Columbia. So there's two kinds of effects. One, there's more American beef in Peru, and the consumers are getting more used to that kind of product versus our product. Vice versa with Columbia. Another thing is, how these usually work is it's not... How the agreements usually work is they're phased in. So tariffs start say at 30%, and then over 20 years they're going to phase down to zero, for example. So with the US being in there for two years before us, and us being in Columbia two years before them, we actually have a two year reduction in tariff, a little buffer that we have in Columbia and they have in Peru. Brendan: 26:03 So I was able to see that our intensive margins into Columbia for beef products were a lot higher than they were into Peru. And that's representation of that tariff being slightly lower. So being able to get in there and make agreements happened sooner? I don't want to say do it sooner rather than later, but there is an impact. Another example with that is Australia, another big beef producer, had an agreement with South Korea for a long time. One that we did not have, so they had a significant tariff advantage. But us entering an agreement with South Korea and then later the CPTPP, Comprehensive and Progressive Trans-Pacific Partnership puts us on an even playing field with Australia. Brendan: 26:46 So now we were at a tariff and regulatory disadvantage, but by signing those two agreements, we've made ourselves a lot more competitive against their beef. And the US hasn't, so there's your geopolitical element. Josh Moran: 26:59 It's interesting, there's incentive to be the first one to the party, really. Josh Moran: 27:00 Well being mindful of the time, I would love to sit here and talk politics and economics all day. It is something that I am interested in as a science student, so I know experts. I always enjoy our conversations. So with that being said, I might ask you a few concluding questions if you're okay with that? Brendan: 27:16 Absolutely. Josh Moran: 27:17 Awesome. So is there anything exciting going on in the life of Mr. McDougall that you want to share? Brendan: 27:22 Oh, absolutely. Well my life is, I'd like to think it's half interesting. I do have my preliminary results, and I'm taking them to committee actually tomorrow. So we're going to see what they think, or if I've made a lot of econometric mistakes. Or maybe I'm on the right track, who knows. I don't like to speculate too much on that. So my thesis is moving along really well, and I think that opens a lot of cool opportunities to other things that I can pursue. Another big thing that's going on in my life is, well Josh, you know about this pretty well. We're involved in an agriculture politics and policy club. It might sound a little dry to some people, but to others it's very interesting. And we have a speaker coming in next week, next Tuesday. He's from the United States Department of Agriculture, and he's coming in to talk about agriculture diplomacy and how an agreement like NAFTA gets negotiated from a political and bureaucratic standpoint. So might sound a little dry, but his name's Evan and he's a well versed guy on the political infighting that happens when it comes to signing something as big as NAFTA. So that should be really interesting, and that's something that, that I get involved in in my spare time. Josh Moran: 28:41 Very good. Yeah, yeah. Right on. I will ask you now if you have any shout outs, anybody you want to give a shout out to? Brendan: 28:47 Yeah, I'd like to give you a shout out to my advisor his name is Sylvanas Afesorgbor. I'm actually his first Masters student. He's a brand new professor in the department, they brought him in because of his expertise in trade and econometrics. And he's been an excellent resource to me, constantly available. The guy works amazingly long hours, and he's been a real help to me and a real inspiration. He was born in Ghana, and his village that he was born in actually had no electricity and running water when he was born there. Brendan: 29:20 And he just turned 38, and he's in Canada and he gets consulted by the UN and all kinds of stuff like that. So he's a true inspiration and a true success story. Josh Moran: 29:29 It's unbelievable. Brendan: 29:30 And he loves trade, and he loves the agrifood trade, so he's my buddy. Yeah, and also the FARE department. There's a lot of great people in that department who really support you, and always help you explore your interests. Josh Moran: 29:45 Yeah. That's great. Brendan: 29:46 So yeah. Josh Moran: 29:46 Awesome. And this is a question we ask pretty much every time, but what advice would you give to someone who's a young person that's aspiring to be an economist, or wants to do research about trade or focus on the economy? What would you say to someone like that? What advice would you give? Brendan: 30:03 I don't know if I can say this. If you want to be an economist you'd better like beer. But if you like studying economics and you like studying geopolitical stuff like that, the best thing you think you might want to get into as a career or a study path? The best thing you can do is read. Read, read, read. Read history, read econ, read geopolitical stuff. Try to get as informed and see as many different views and opinions as you can. Brendan: 30:29 I know in our agrifood policy club, there are some political differences between the members, even the leadership members. But I think what we all value is the importance of seeing both sides of an argument and being able to reason both sides. So the best way to do that is being informed, reading lots, going to lectures, talking to your professors and talking to people in the industry. So that'd be my advice to anyone looking to get interested in stuff like this. Josh Moran: 30:54 Awesome. I look forward to seeing your results once you have everything out there. And with that all being said, thanks again so much for coming on. I found this conversation super duper interested, and you're very, very well spoken. I always enjoy the conversation, so thanks again for coming on. Brendan: 31:08 No problem, Josh. Thanks, Josh. Thanks, Jordan for having me, I really appreciate it. Josh Moran: 31:12 Awesome. Jordan Terpstra: 31:13 Cool, thanks. Josh Moran: 31:13 Until next time, folks. Narrator: 31:18 The Why and How podcast is published by the Ontario Agricultural College of the university of Guelph, and it's produced by Stephanie Craig and Jordan Terpstra. Recording and editing done by Jacob Hiesec and Kyle Richie. The host is me, Josh Marne. Funding for this episode was provided by the W.S. Young Memorial Communications Grant for the OAC Alumni Foundation.