Rosemary Whittl: 00:08 Omega-3s actually increase fearfulness for the tests that I've done, mainly social isolation fear, so fear of being away from their friends. It increases that. But I think that could be in line with an increase of cognitive ability. So, they're more aware of what's going on, so therefore, they're more fearful of their surroundings. Josh Moran: 00:32 You're listening to the Why & How podcast, produced by the Ontario Agricultural College of the University of Guelph, where we look to answer the big questions in agriculture, food and the environment through casual conversation rooted in research. Everyone, I'm Josh Moran, and today, we are joined by a friend of the show, Jordan Terpstra. Jordan Terpstra: 00:56 Hey, Josh. How's it going today? Josh Moran: 00:58 I'm doing A-okay. Better than yesterday, worse than tomorrow? How are you doing? Jordan Terpstra: 01:01 Oh, I'm pretty great. I'm pretty swell. I'm excited to be here once again. Josh Moran: 01:05 That's great. Jordan Terpstra: 01:05 Yeah. So, who are we talking with today? Josh Moran: 01:07 Well, today, we're talking to Rosie. Thanks for being on. We're super excited to talk with you today. Rosemary Whittl: 01:12 Oh, thank you for having me. I'm excited to be here. Josh Moran: 01:14 I was lucky enough a few months back to attend the Campbell Center Symposium for animal welfare where I actually heard Rosie speak, and she was phenomenal, so I think she makes a perfect guest to discuss today's topic. So, maybe I'll get you to talk a little bit about that. Can we get maybe a Coles Notes version of what you're researching? Rosemary Whittl: 01:34 Okay. So, I'm researching chicken welfare, specifically behavior and the effect of feeding Omega-3s to parental birds and how it would affect the behavior of that offspring in both laying hen chickens and broilers. Josh Moran: 01:49 Which is super duper interesting because omega-3 is quite the buzzword. I don't think a lot of people even know what make omega-3 is. I personally had to do quite a bit of research to kind of get my head around it before this episode. So, I'm excited to go into that. But before we delve any deeper, let's learn a little bit about you. So, what initially drove you towards the OAC? Rosemary Whittl: 02:11 To be honest, I applied for the position itself with my supervisor, Dr. Tina Widowski. Unfortunately, I didn't choose Guelph specifically for the OAC, but just for my supervisor, Dr. Tina Widowski. Josh Moran: 02:23 That's good. You didn't do your undergraduate here in Canada. Is that correct? Rosemary Whittl: 02:28 No, I did my undergraduate degree in the UK at the University of Wales Swansea. Josh Moran: 02:34 Okay. Cool. Then, you're currently doing this as a PhD project, correct? Rosemary Whittl: 02:38 Yes, it is. Yes. Josh Moran: 02:39 Then, so for your master's, you were also somewhere else that was kind of- Rosemary Whittl: 02:42 Yeah, for my masters degree, I did two years in Sweden at the University of Linkoping. Josh Moran: 02:47 Quite well-traveled. So, super cool, and I'm excited to dive into this topic. So, what got you into your research? What was the drive towards working with chickens? Rosemary Whittl: 02:57 Well, I've always kept chickens growing up, always had a couple in my backyard for the eggs and for breeding, I used to show them, and it wasn't until I did my master's degree that I sort of got into the poultry welfare research side of things. I enjoyed it so much that I wanted to carry on for my PhD. Josh Moran: 03:15 Now, before we get going on the actual implication, what is an omega-three fatty acid? Rosemary Whittl: 03:20 So, as you said, it's a fatty acid. It's something which we have to get from our food that we can't create in our body ourselves. So, we have to eat these things to be able to absorb into the body and use them for really important brain functions, those sort of things. Brain development, cognitive ability are a few of the things that they do. Josh Moran: 03:41 I've read about it before, and I think kind of the buzz around omega-3 is it works kind of as like a cognitive enhancer. It makes you feel smarter. Almost like a study food, right? They say, "Eat fish," because it has lots of omega-3s and it can make you feel smarter. So, is that true? Rosemary Whittl: 03:54 It's exactly what they do. They call it the big brain food. So, that's what all the consumers and producers try and push onto you. Eat your omega-3s. They're going to make you clever. Josh Moran: 04:05 Since omega-3s aren't typically ... They're not typically found in chickens in abundant amounts, are they? Rosemary Whittl: 04:11 No, not at all, actually. The natural diet of a chicken really doesn't contain many omega-3s. It's just something we give them in order to produce products for our own consumption. Josh Moran: 04:22 So, these omega-3s, why are we choosing to give it to chickens in the form of feed? Why aren't we using, say, ... I don't know ... other types of animal proteins? Rosemary Whittl: 04:33 It's mainly due to the shift of Western diets. So, we're eating less fish, eating less whole grains. So, most people eat chicken either through the eggs or the meats, so by feeding it to the chicken and then putting it into their products, it's an easy way of getting it to a really wide range of people. Josh Moran: 04:53 How effective is the omega-3 in a chicken in comparison to that which is naturally found in, say, like some of these grains or an actual fish? Rosemary Whittl: 05:05 I am a firm believer, and this is my personal opinion, that it's always better from the primary source. As soon as you feed it to an animal, you then have a reduced number, which the animal can uptake. I mean, chickens are pretty good. They can uptake omega-3s at three times the rate that we can, but it means that we have to eat three times as much chicken to be able to get the benefit of eating it just from the fish or from the grains or taking one of those little fish oil pills, for example. Josh Moran: 05:31 Yeah. Okay. So, that's what those tablets are, like for the omega-3? Is that actually sourced from fish oil? Rosemary Whittl: 05:38 Yes. Yeah, from fish oils. Josh Moran: 05:39 Interesting. These omega-3s ... There's another variety of omega-6s. That's omega-6s, right, is another thing? Rosemary Whittl: 05:46 Yes. Josh Moran: 05:46 That's typically more associated with this Western diet that we're consuming? Rosemary Whittl: 05:50 Yeah. Predominantly found in corn-based diet or soybean. Any sort of major grains contain omega-6s. Josh Moran: 05:59 So, you mentioned that you work with laying hens and broiler hens. Can you just explain what a broiler chicken is, because some people might not know? Rosemary Whittl: 06:05 So, a broiler chicken is a specially selected chicken, male or female, both of them, purely for meat production. So, they've been very intensively selected since, like, the 1950s for meat yield. So, they basically put on as much muscle as possible in the shortest space of time. Josh Moran: 06:26 So, how are these omega-3 fatty acids actually being uptaked? You say it's through a paternal diet, right? So, what's going on there to produce this next generation of chicks and what's sort of going on- Rosemary Whittl: 06:37 The maternal diet. Josh Moran: 06:37 The maternal diet. My apologies. Rosemary Whittl: 06:40 So, basically, we have special nutritionists who formulate these diets for us. They're all balanced, so they contain the same amount of fatty acids. We're just manipulating the ratios of each fatty acid within the diet. Then, we just feed them to it in there, like natural, normal, pelleted feed or crumbles, depending on what they get. Josh Moran: 07:02 So, when they're developing the offspring, these actual chicks, what's going on with that omega-3? How is that been taken out? Where's that being focalized? Rosemary Whittl: 07:11 Okay. So, when a chicken lays an egg, they deposit all of the fatty acids from the diet, they can deposit it into the egg yolk. Then, the egg yolk is so rich in phospholipids, like incredibly fatty acids, and when the embryo is developing, their embryo absorbs the yolk sac. That's all it's nutrients that it has for its development. So, as it's growing and developing, it's absorbing these omega-3s alongside all the other fatty acids within the egg yolk. One of the main regions they accumulate is ... For example, the brain is very high in fatty acids. The brain and also other organs, such as the liver as well for immune functioning. Josh Moran: 07:52 So, in these omega-3s, how are they ... Are they improving the chicken's cognitive ability in a way? Would it maybe be smarter, like it would affect us? Rosemary Whittl: 08:02 It's not something I've looked at yet. It's like kind of one of the big questions I'm going to be looking at for my research. I've already done a few pilot tests, but all of the literature I've read so far suggests that it does increase cognitive ability, especially when looking at locations of resources. So, spatial cognition. Josh Moran: 08:19 Cool. With this next generation of chicks, what sort of effects are you seeing? What's the actual kind of determination there? Rosemary Whittl: 08:32 So, the studies I've done so far have been looking at emotional reactivity and fearfulness. So, so far, I've found that omega-3s actually increase fearfulness for the tests that I've done, mainly social isolation fear, so fear of being away from their friends. It increases that. But I think that could be in line with an increase of cognitive ability. So, they're more aware of what's going on, so therefore, they're more fearful of their surroundings. Josh Moran: 09:00 I know that when I'm scared, I usually cry or scream. Well, maybe not that, but when we talk about that, as humans, we can sort of portray that emotion, right? Now, I'm curious as to how you're actually measuring this level of fearfulness in these birds. Rosemary Whittl: 09:16 So, the main test which I've analyzed so far is a social anxiety test. It's basically you use an isolation box. You place the chicken there for a short period of time and then you record the vocalizations. This test was validated for a pharmacological model. So, they basically administered antianxiety drugs to the chicks and seen whether they were less anxious to be alone with the drugs or without the drugs. So, it's a very well-validated method to measure anxiety in chickens. Josh Moran: 09:49 Okay. By vocalizations, you just mean how much they're yelling and freaking out? Rosemary Whittl: 09:53 Yeah. How much they're screaming, basically. Jordan Terpstra: 09:55 Squawking and squeaking. Josh Moran: 09:56 So, the same way you would measure my fearfulness is by how much I'm screaming and freaking out, right? Rosemary Whittl: 10:00 Exactly. Put you in a box, see how much you scream. Josh Moran: 10:04 Cool. Super interesting. Has there been anything that's really surprised you about this? Did you expect to sort of see this increased level of vocalization or ... Rosemary Whittl: 10:13 From the literature I've been reading before I did the test, it was something I did sort of expect, but there were some things which I didn't expect. There was a big difference between the type of chicken I use. So, I used two strains of laying hens, one brown strain and one white strain, and there was, like, complete differences between the two strains. Josh Moran: 10:32 Now, that's actually super interesting. So, actually, what are these two breeds that you were working with? Rosemary Whittl: 10:36 So, we use the Shaver Whites and ISA Brown. Josh Moran: 10:41 These are relatively commercially used or are commercially [crosstalk 00:10:45] - Rosemary Whittl: 10:44 These are very heavily commercial used. Josh Moran: 10:47 Okay. Very interesting. These are both broilers or laying hands? Rosemary Whittl: 10:50 Laying hens. Josh Moran: 10:51 Laying hens. Okay. Very interesting. What were the differences that you saw in between the brown and the white? Rosemary Whittl: 10:57 I found that, actually, the brown chickens didn't have that much of an effect of the maternal diet. They would naturally had a higher vocalization rate than the white birds and that, actually, the diet only made a difference for the white birds, which was a bit strange. Josh Moran: 11:18 Do you have an idea as to why that was or is it kind of up in the air? Rosemary Whittl: 11:19 Well, I've been speaking to my colleagues who are doing the nutritional side of this study, and one theory we're kind of playing around with at the moment is that they actually absorb a different rate of omega-3s, like depending on the strain when the embryo is developing. So, that's kind of one theory we're rolling with at the moment, but it's going to take a lot more research to try and actually work out all the mechanisms behind why these white and brown chickens are completely different. It's like a global mystery of- Josh Moran: 11:48 That's super interesting. Rosemary Whittl: 11:49 ... different between the strains. Why are they so different? Josh Moran: 11:52 So, when you have these offspring and you're researching them, are you feeding them an omega-3-enriched diet as well or they're not getting any? Rosemary Whittl: 12:00 No, I'm just feeding them the regular diet that they would get, which is actually pretty high in omega-6s. Josh Moran: 12:06 Okay. So, it's strictly just based on what the mother ate and then seeing how that affects the offspring. Rosemary Whittl: 12:12 Yeah. We're looking at purely maternal influences. Josh Moran: 12:14 Very cool. So, you were comparing the two different colors of laying birds. Do you find a difference in the broiler birds as well? Rosemary Whittl: 12:21 I actually haven't done any research on the broilers yet. That's purely from what I've read in the literature. That's what I'm doing next. So, currently raising broiler breeders and I will be hatching them in the next month or so. I'm doing all of my research on the broilers. Josh Moran: 12:35 Cool. You say you're a big fan of chickens, so it must be fun to be able to have the little chicks and be doing research on them. Rosemary Whittl: 12:41 It's the best day. Hatch day is the best day. Josh Moran: 12:42 Ah, that's awesome. Jordan Terpstra: 12:43 Ah, that's awesome. Josh Moran: 12:44 Are there any other sort of tests that you're using to kind of measure this fearfulness or this stress indicator? Rosemary Whittl: 12:50 So, I also did a novel arena test, which is basically you build an arena, something completely new for them. The birds that I used were raised in conventional cages, so even just having a little floor and a perch was something pretty new to them. Then, you just record videos and then analyze the behavior that you see, focusing mainly on any distress, like vocalizations, whether they're trying to escape, whether they're just chilled out. Some of them just dust bathe and clean themselves and scratch around and don't really care. Some of them are a bit more frightened. So, hopefully that's the effect of the diet. Josh Moran: 13:29 Okay. You said a conventional cage. Just to sort of specify what that is in Canadian production for birds. Rosemary Whittl: 13:36 So, I believe they're just called conventional cages, but these are being phased out now. In the next 10 years, they're going to be all gone, and they're moving to enrich colonies or aviaries. So, at the moment, we're still allowed to use them, but it's going to be phased out very soon. Josh Moran: 13:51 What's the difference in between those, like the conventional and the actual ... What's the other one you said? Sorry. Rosemary Whittl: 13:55 The enriched colony? Josh Moran: 13:57 Yeah. Rosemary Whittl: 13:57 So, conventional cage literally just has the wire floor and feed and water whereas an enriched colony has access to perches, have a nesting area, scratch pads to scratch around or dust bathe if they wanted to. Josh Moran: 14:11 Very interesting. You said, from analyzing this video behavior, what have you sort of seen in relation to these omega-3 birds? Rosemary Whittl: 14:20 Well, I'm still analyzing the videos at the moment. It's a very long process- Josh Moran: 14:24 I believe it. Rosemary Whittl: 14:25 ... because you have so many birds you have to test and then so many hours of video, and each video takes about three times the length of the video to analyze because you've got to get all the behaviors in. You don't want to miss anything. So, it's a work in progress. Josh Moran: 14:40 I remember when I was actually at the symposium where I first saw you, they spoke about playfulness. Do you measure that at all with these videos as well and sort of them picking up these worms and running around with them? Rosemary Whittl: 14:51 It's something I've tried to look at, but to be honest, because it's a stressful environment for them, it's not something we see very often. If they were in their home pen with all their friends, maybe it's something you could record more often. I mean, I have seen a few play like bouts, so they chase each other a little bit, but I haven't seen that much to be honest. Josh Moran: 15:11 Interesting. With stress, why is reducing stress super important to producers and [inaudible 00:15:19] and bird welfare? Rosemary Whittl: 15:21 Stress does a lot of things to a chicken. So, it decreases egg production, it makes them more susceptible to diseases or infections, it could cause paddock in the houses. So, if they're fearful of humans, for example, they could all run away and end up hurting themselves. All sorts of things. Something as simple as a rodent running in the barn could scare them or each other. One flies down and scares them and everybody panics. Josh Moran: 15:52 Freaks out. Rosemary Whittl: 15:52 Everybody panics. Josh Moran: 15:52 A domino effect. Rosemary Whittl: 15:53 So, yeah, reducing fear is a very big thing for the commercial poultry industry right now. Jordan Terpstra: 15:58 So, if these birds that ... So, their mother was eating the omega-3s and then these birds actually ... So, the offspring might be more susceptible to fear. So, is it actually a bad thing to be feeding the omega-3s because then they might be more stressed out? Rosemary Whittl: 16:13 It's not something I can really deduce right now. Jordan Terpstra: 16:17 Right. Rosemary Whittl: 16:18 If it could increase cognitive ability as well so they're better able to maneuver in aviary systems where they have to work out how to reach different levels for feed and water and they have to find their nests, which are off the ground, and be able to get down again for food and water, then it could be a positive, but then you have to just weigh it up and see whether the bad outweighs the good, basically. Josh Moran: 16:40 Double-edged sword, so to speak. Rosemary Whittl: 16:42 Exactly. Jordan Terpstra: 16:44 So, you mentioned previously about your traveling and doing different ... Your research ... Or your masters ... Sorry ... your undergrad in different areas, so can you kind of tell us a bit more about do you have a bit of a travel bug? You like to travel? Rosemary Whittl: 16:58 I do like to travel. Most of my studies has been because I've gone for the course or for the topic. So, I moved to Sweden because it was the early masters course of the whole of Europe, which actually excited me, so I just decided to go for it and got a place and had an amazing two years. Jordan Terpstra: 17:17 I find that I've seen, definitely ... I've seen two types of people that, when they continue on with higher education, I see the people that kind of stick to one place and try it and just continue there and I see people like yourselves where they travel all over the world. Any tips or tricks or any kind of information that you would provide people that are kind of trying to weigh those different options? Rosemary Whittl: 17:38 I was always heavily recommended not to remain in the same group. If you travel around a bit, then you get more experience with different people, you could make new friends, meet new researchers, collaborate around the world, basically. So, I know that I could speak to people I met in Sweden and discuss projects and ideas and bounce off each other. It's a lot ... For me, it's a lot nicer to be able to have that opportunity. I mean, I understand some people enjoy where they are so much that they do want to stay. Jordan Terpstra: 18:10 Totally. I'm curious, too. So, when I think of something like chickens, I like chickens a lot, too, so I know that the different breeds and the animal standards across the world are very different. So, what is that like, conducting research in different countries on animals like chickens? Rosemary Whittl: 18:27 I've been very lucky so far because in Sweden, they have a pretty high welfare standard and also Canada. So, I've never actually experienced anywhere which has a lower welfare standard from where I come from in the UK. Jordan Terpstra: 18:40 Right. Josh Moran: 18:40 Are the breeds different? Rosemary Whittl: 18:43 Most of the commercial breeds are pretty much the same. All of the companies who are in the genetic lines basically ship worldwide. There's a very big monopoly on different commercial breeds. Josh Moran: 18:55 Now, something that I'm wondering, was animal welfare always your focus coming up to this point? Rosemary Whittl: 19:02 Yes. Animal welfare. During my undergraduate, I was very passionate about conservation as well, but mainly to do with animal welfare. It used to be just zoo animals and then I was like, "No, chickens are cool." Josh Moran: 19:14 Yeah, that's great. So, your masters, I'm wondering, was that working with birds as well or is it kind of switched over? Rosemary Whittl: 19:23 Yeah, so I did a year of courses, which was very varied. We did everything from zoo biology to a bit of conservation work and different research projects at the zoo. Then, for, like, the second year, I did a one-year research project on poultry welfare. So, that was amazing. Jordan Terpstra: 19:44 Were you looking at a similar thing or a different type of poultry welfare? Rosemary Whittl: 19:49 So, my masters' research was looking at how stressful are commercial hatcheries. So, all commercial chickens are hatched in a commercial hatchery. Actually, the first day of life could be one of the most stressful days of their entire life. So, we were looking at how this stress on the first day of their life could affect their behavior for their entire laying period, basically. Josh Moran: 20:11 Very cool. Jordan Terpstra: 20:12 Why is it that that first day is the most stressful day of all days? Rosemary Whittl: 20:15 Well, they're subjected to a lot of different processes. In the commercial hatchery, they have to be vaccinated. In Canada, they get debeaked. All these different things. They're going to get transported for pretty long distances for a one-day-old baby chicken. So, it's all factoring in different things. They're even raised without their moms, so they're not born with a mom to teach them everything and to comfort them. So, it's a big wide world that get thrown into. Jordan Terpstra: 20:49 Yeah. I remember earlier on, you spoke to some of the negative implications of having these higher levels of stress. One of the things you said was disease susceptibility. Now, what are some of these common diseases that you will see in barns that aren't under these ideal conditions? Rosemary Whittl: 21:08 To be honest, biosecurity and everything's pretty good, so there is very few outbreaks of anything. One of the biggest stress-related diseases, probably Coccidiosis, but it's very heavily managed. Thankfully, we don't really have that many outbreaks of diseases. It's more if they were to get sick, they'd be more susceptible because they were stressed because the HPL axis, which modulates fear responses as well as other pleasure feelings as well, also inhibits the production of like antibodies in the system. Jordan Terpstra: 21:46 Coccidiosis. What's that exactly? You said it's one of the ones that you would really ... It's very rare to see any of them, but it was one that [crosstalk 00:21:54]- Rosemary Whittl: 21:55 It's a respiratory disease. Josh Moran: 21:56 Respiratory. Okay. Cool. Interesting. Interesting. Then, also, you said with behavioral indication, if there's higher stress, would you see things like pecking more often as well, like birds going at each other or ... Rosemary Whittl: 22:08 It is one factor, which can cause pecking? Feather pecking is still a very unknown subject, even though we've known about it for a very long time. It's kind of one of the mysteries of poultry science, to be honest. Lots of research here is going onto pecking and the mechanisms behind it as well. Jordan Terpstra: 22:25 Then, something else as well. I remember from your presentation, I think ... It may have been your write-up that I got from you. You said the development was in a specific region in the brain. I think you said it was the hippocampus where you have a lot of accumulation. What's the significance of that section of the brain and the actual stress response that a bird will show? Rosemary Whittl: 22:44 It's lots of different regions of the brain, to be honest, that the omega-3's accumulate. The hippocampus just mediates some of your HP activity, so the stress response systems that I was speaking about previously, and it can cause either an underproduction of stressful hormones or an overproduction of stress hormones. Jordan Terpstra: 23:09 This HPA you said, what's this? Rosemary Whittl: 23:12 It's a hypothalamic-pituitary-adrenal axis, I think. Jordan Terpstra: 23:17 That is quite a- Rosemary Whittl: 23:20 A mouthful. Josh Moran: 23:20 Yeah, no kidding. Try and say that 10 times in a row very quickly. Rosemary Whittl: 23:24 I couldn't do that. Josh Moran: 23:25 No. What sort of stage are you in right now? It's getting very, very busy, but how many more processes or how much longer do you think you have until you're kind of leaning towards the end? Rosemary Whittl: 23:38 I hope to finish this part of it on the mid-December. Then, that's it for the broiler side of things. Then, I have to raise parental flux for laying hens as well, so that's going to be another year-long process probably. Josh Moran: 23:52 So, are you raising these birds on campus or do you have farms outside of the city that you work with? Rosemary Whittl: 23:58 The Arkell Poultry Research Center. Josh Moran: 24:01 Very cool. Now, these hormones that are responsible for sort of these stress responses, are they pretty much the same sort of hormones we'll see in maybe a human being or any other types of animals or is it different for these birds? Rosemary Whittl: 24:16 It's pretty much similar. So, chickens have a hormone called corticosteroid, whereas the equivalent of that in humans would be cortisol. So, it's a similar similar hormone, just slightly, slightly different. Josh Moran: 24:28 So, you're currently working with kind of a nutrition side of things, but you're not a nutritionist. So, is there a lot of collaboration in your research? Rosemary Whittl: 24:36 Yeah. So, my project is a grant held by a nutritionist called Dr. Elijah Kiarie, and he has two other PhD students who work on this project. One of them looks at the broiler side and the other one looks at the laying hen side for the nutritional factors, and I just look at the behavior of both. Josh Moran: 24:56 Very cool. So, you said that you work with Tina Widowski. Is her lab strictly just poultry or is it all animal welfare? Rosemary Whittl: 25:05 The lab itself is poultry welfare. Tina herself worked on several other species before settling on just poultry at the moment. Josh Moran: 25:13 Very cool. Do you have a preferred bird that you like to work with? Do you prefer layers over broilers or you're just that chicken lover all around? Rosemary Whittl: 25:20 I think it's easier to get attached to layers because they're around for a bit longer than broilers and you could have them for a full lifespan of a chicken almost. Josh Moran: 25:30 Nice. Jordan Terpstra: 25:32 I'm curious maybe because I know you said it wasn't a direct choice to come to the OAC because it moreso fell under finding your advisor [inaudible 00:25:41] applying to your advisor. Now, I'm wondering sort of what's this experience at the OAC been like for you up to this point? Rosemary Whittl: 25:48 It's a little bit strange because everywhere I go Canada, everybody knows about Guelph. It's like, "Oh, Guelph is amazing for animal science," and I'm like, "Is it?" Okay. Good to know. So, it's choosing the supervisor very distanced me from looking at the actual school itself. Josh Moran: 26:09 So, was it kind of surprising coming in or was it what you ... Did it end up being a lot more than what you may have expected or was it- Rosemary Whittl: 26:17 I think there was a lot more variety than what I expected. Different variety of not only poultry welfare or poultry science in general. Also, a lot of different agricultural science, crop science, I didn't expect all of that to be in Guelph. Josh Moran: 26:31 When seeking out Tina, what made you find out about her work? What made you really aim towards that? Rosemary Whittl: 26:37 So, I found the position through the ISAE, which is the International Society for Applied Ethology. They hold listings for new positions which are opening up. I saw the posting on there and then had a look at the group and decided that, yeah, this is something I want to apply for. It was the only one I applied for. So, thank you, Tina. Josh Moran: 27:00 Congratulations. That's great. Jordan Terpstra: 27:02 Now, for somebody that may not have known much about animal welfare before going into this, could you maybe say what the highlight of your worker is and sort of why you like it as much as you do? Rosemary Whittl: 27:16 For me, it's the end goal. So, I like to know that what I'm doing actually might have a difference and that I'm in a position here where it maybe could influence commercial poultry welfare. So, we work very close with the industry at Guelph, so it's an ideal position to try and spread my research globally. Jordan Terpstra: 27:38 I've actually seen the application behind what you're researching. It's kind of cool to see that you can make a difference, and it has the potential to be carried out and- Rosemary Whittl: 27:49 Yeah, I really hope I could make a difference. Jordan Terpstra: 27:51 That's awesome. I'm sure you will. So, before actually uptaking these omega-3 diets or birds that aren't on these diets, I'm kind of curious as to whether they do have a certain level of stress response as well. Is there, kind of? Rosemary Whittl: 28:08 Well, any environment that a chicken lives in where there's a lot of chickens in one space, there's going to be a certain amount of social stress. The size of the flocks that we have in Canada means that there's a lot of chickens, so it's hard to kind of establish the normal hierarchy that small groups of chickens would. So, there's a very small amount of social stress as they meet new people every day pretty much, or new chickens. Sorry. Chickens are not people. Josh Moran: 28:37 You said, "Social stress." So, birds are naturally very, very social I'd imagine or do they kind of require this companionship amongst each other to reduce that level of stress? Rosemary Whittl: 28:46 Yeah. So, if you look at the red junglefowl, which is the closest remaining ancestor to the chicken, which still lives in the wild, they kind of live in small flocks, and you'll have one male to many females or half a dozen females. Maybe you would have one little subdominant male who just hangs around to see whether he gets lucky. Then, the other males would just live a solitary life until they could find their own females to be with. So, they're kind of used to being in small groups, not quite in the thousands that they're housed in in commercial settings. Jordan Terpstra: 29:25 Well, I feel like even to the term, "Pecking order," right? That's something that we throw out all the time. That's an important component for poultry. Correct? Rosemary Whittl: 29:33 It is. Yeah. So, basically, their dominance hierarchy. So, they have to establish who is the top head, they get the most access to the resources, they usually have control over the rooster a little bit. So, yeah, it's the place to be. So, they tend to fight it out quite often. Jordan Terpstra: 29:49 Oh, kind of like an alpha sort of position. That's neat. Rosemary Whittl: 29:51 Exactly. Jordan Terpstra: 29:52 So, do you ... Is that a component that you look at in your research, like kind of identifying who might be at the top of the pecking order and how that might affect the rest of the birds? Rosemary Whittl: 30:01 It's not something I've looked at. It's something that the group I worked with in Sweden looked at quite a bit, different hierarchies and social dominances and personality, whether they're more bold or more timid. So, it is being looked at, but not by me. Jordan Terpstra: 30:17 Very cool. Josh Moran: 30:18 So, when you're actually looking at these birds that are being fed ... Sorry ... that have been raised on this omega-3 diet or were born as a product of this omega-3-based diet, are there any birds that are kind of just completely chill and not affected by it and some that are actually outliers or is there a pretty common thread amongst all of them with this behavioral tendency? Rosemary Whittl: 30:41 Currently, I'd say it's a pretty common thread, but then I'm very early into my research, so I can't draw any specific conclusions about that right now. Josh Moran: 30:49 Is there anything exciting going on that you want to share with the audience, anything exciting going on in the life of Rosie or ... Rosemary Whittl: 30:54 In my chicken life or my personal life? Josh Moran: 30:58 Your choice. Anything. Rosemary Whittl: 31:00 Well, I'm pretty excited about my chickens. They should start laying eggs soon, so it means that I can have some babies soon. That's probably the most exciting thing for any poultry researcher. Josh Moran: 31:11 Awesome. Jordan Terpstra: 31:11 Very cool. Well, we wish you good luck with the eggs and the babies and the hatching. Rosemary Whittl: 31:15 Thank you. Jordan Terpstra: 31:17 One last question would be, "Do you have any shout outs you'd like to make?" Rosemary Whittl: 31:22 Of course. I'd like to thank my supervisor of course, Tina Widowski, for constant support and all the people who put up with me in my office. You know who you are. I'm going to say you anyway. Anna, dad, [Mediad 00:31:34], Amanda. You Know who you are. Yeah, just everybody in my group. Everybody's amazing and we all work so well together and bounce ideas, so it's amazing. Josh Moran: 31:44 Well, awesome. Thank you for being on and sharing your research. I look forward to reading about some future findings and see which direction this takes, and hopefully, we see a big industry impact. We wish you luck in your journey to make a difference in the world of agriculture and poultry production. Thank you so much for being on. Rosemary Whittl: 32:03 No, thank you very much for inviting me. It's been really cool. Thank you. Jordan Terpstra: 32:06 Thanks for joining us. Rosemary Whittl: 32:06 Awesome. Josh Moran: 32:07 Thanks for listening, guys. Until next time. Josh Moran: 32:12 The Why & How podcast is published by the Ontario Agricultural College of the University of Guelph. It is produced by Stephanie Craig and Jordan Terpstra. Recording and editing done by Jacob [inaudible 00:32:24] and Kyle Richie. The host is me, Josh Moran. Funding for this episode was provided by the WS Young Memorial Communications Grant for the OAC Alumni Foundation.