Chirag Patney: 00:04 They know what they need. They know the issues that they're facing, they know the challenges they're facing, and they know what they need to do to overcome them, but oftentimes they just don't have the resources in place to do so. Josh Moran: 00:18 You're listening to the Why & How Podcast produced by the Ontario Agricultural College of the University of Guelph, where we look to answer the big questions in agriculture, food, and the environment through casual conversation rooted in research. Josh Moran: 00:35 Hello everyone. I'm Josh Moran and today we're joined by best friend of the show, Jordan Terpstra. I figured we'd begin this new stage. Jordan Terpstra: 00:42 So I got upgraded now. That's exciting. Cool. Josh Moran: 00:44 Yes, very exciting. Jordan Terpstra: 00:45 Well, it's good to see you today, Josh, and who do we have joined with us today? Josh Moran: 00:48 Today we are joined by Chirag Patney. Hi. Thanks for being on the show. Chirag Patney: 00:52 Yeah, absolutely. Thanks for having me. Jordan Terpstra: 00:54 So maybe before we get too far into it, could we maybe get a Coles Notes version of what you're researching? Chirag Patney: 01:01 Yeah. So this research project focuses on First Nations fisheries governance in the Great Lakes in Ontario. We're looking at what First Nations are doing with regards to managing their fisheries, what kind of fishing practices they do, whether it's commercial or traditional, and trying to get an idea of how we as, I guess as researchers, in some way are able to help them better their management practices, get some more governance strategies going and just figure out what they need from us. Josh Moran: 01:38 I'm very excited to delve into this. But before we do, I'm going to ask you a few background questions, if that's cool? Chirag Patney: 01:44 Yeah, absolutely. Josh Moran: 01:45 Awesome. What did you study as an undergraduate student? Chirag Patney: 01:47 I actually did my undergrad here again at the University of Guelph in Landscape Architecture. Josh Moran: 01:52 Okay. Chirag Patney: 01:52 It was a very different program from what I'm doing now. It was more design-heavy. So I did basically did no writing outside of a couple courses that I took for my minor. But now everything I do is sitting in front of a laptop doing some desktop research and writing it out right now, but it's still fun. I'm having a good time, so I like it. Josh Moran: 02:15 That's good. What was your minor? Chirag Patney: 02:17 My minor was in geography. Josh Moran: 02:19 Very interesting. Cool. Jordan Terpstra: 02:21 Did you work as a landscape architect or did you go straight into your master's? Chirag Patney: 02:26 No, I went straight into my master's. I always wanted to be a professional. My idea was never to be an academic. I did a professional degree in landscape architecture, and now I'm doing another professional degree in rural planning and development that allows me to be ... or at least start my way to being a planner. But I think over the last five months now, maybe four months, just doing this research and talking with some other professors and friends that are in other programs who have a strong focus on academia, I've actually started to look at PhD programs, which honestly, if you asked me a year ago and my friends did, to be honest with you. I was like, "No. PhD, it's not something for me whatsoever." But yeah, now I'm just really into something. I never thought I'd be, but here I am. Josh Moran: 03:22 That's crazy how the road changes, eh? Chirag Patney: 03:24 Yeah, yeah. Josh Moran: 03:25 Now I'm just curious. What drove you towards working with First Nations community and this realm of research? Chirag Patney: 03:31 Yeah. A couple of things, to be honest. One of the first things was in my undergrad I took a course called Environmental Impact Assessment. It was part of my minor. In that, we were looking at the duty to consult, which is a federal and provincial part of the Environmental Impact Assessment, actually just part of any project that wants to be conducted. So if there's any time where a project is trying to be taken on and it infringes on the inherent right or the treaty right of any of the First Nations communities, or it's within their traditional territory, any group, whether it's the government or private corporations have the duty to go and consult with these communities to see what they can do to work with them. Chirag Patney: 04:25 For the company or the province, they still want to get this project going. For First Nations, they're trying to build their governance. They're trying to build their management strategies. They're trying to build capacity in their communities to do bigger and better things. So this duty to consult is a way for the First Nations communities to ensure that they have the right to speak about and the right to govern their own land. Josh Moran: 04:48 It's empowering them to give them say, right? Chirag Patney: 04:50 Yes. Yeah. It's empowering them to give them a say. There's a second part of that, which isn't specifically part of our legislation in Canada, but it's called Free Prior and Informed Consent. That was something that was delved down from the United Nations, a declaration for the rights of Indigenous Peoples that Canada signed onto a few years ago. Basically what that says is it's not so much you're consulting them, it's actually you're asking them and they're consenting to you doing this project on their territory or on their land or allowing you to infringe on those rights, if you do at all. Josh Moran: 05:27 So with your actual project, what First Nations communities are you working with? Where are you working out of? Chirag Patney: 05:33 Yeah. That's an interesting one because this project started out looking at a very large focus. We have 35 communities that were actually that we identified as part of this project. Those communities are located within the Great Lake Basin, so anywhere from up the St. Lawrence a little bit all the way up to the corner of Lake Superior. So there's 35 communities. They're kind of spread out everywhere. But since then we've kind of narrowed it down a little bit because it's hard to have 35 community partners to coordinate with and work with at all times. So we ended up actually interviewing about 16 communities, I want to say. Now as this project has evolved, we are focused in on one community, and we're working with them to actually create a little documentary that we're going to publish in the next, I want to say, year. Josh Moran: 06:29 That's super exciting. Chirag Patney: 06:29 Yeah. Josh Moran: 06:30 Now with the fisheries, I'm curious as to what some of those concerns that are being raised are with these communities. Chirag Patney: 06:39 So by the communities, there's a few concerns. One is there's a lack of resources available. So there was one good resource that was available, it was called the ... Or it is still available. Sorry, I shouldn't say that it's gone now. It's the Anishinabek/Ontario Fisheries Resource Centre. So it's a provincially-funded center that helps First Nations communities with assessments, so ensuring that their water quality is good, that their fish toxicity levels aren't too high, that they know the fish population levels. So if they're on a decline, the community can be like, "Okay. We're going to fish a little bit less so that we're not kind of-" Josh Moran: 07:18 Exceeding that limit. Chirag Patney: 07:19 Yeah. Exceeding that limit. But I think three months ago, as part of the provincial cuts to funding, that organization received a 70% budget cut, which is really unfortunate because it was actually one of the larger resources available to First Nations communities. But now there's a strong limitation that's released on what they can actually do to help these communities. So that's one of the challenges that they're facing. Another one is a lack of power. A lot of communities don't have these formal laws that are in place that are recognized by the province of Ontario. So they have more of these community laws. These are laws that are followed by community members in the community solely, but they're not enforced all the time in any way because there's no capacity. There's not enough people. There's not enough money to hire out police forces or other people to stand out there and monitor and ensure that people are actually following these community laws. Chirag Patney: 08:36 So what happens is a lot of the time, the community leadership tries to enforce or tries to instill a sense of responsibility. You are responsible to the land because you, as an indigenous individual, are born with an inherent right to be on this land, to use this land. So that inherent right comes with a responsibility to ensure that this land is sustained for the next seven generations. That idea of seven generations is actually part of an indigenous law where you do everything thinking about seven generations back and seven generations forward to ensure that everything that you're doing is sustainable. Josh Moran: 09:24 That's a beautiful thing, that connection to the land. That's awesome. Now, by the sounds of it as well, it sounds that maybe this fishing plays a major cultural role as well as sort of a practical role in all of these nations. Can you maybe speak to the role it plays? Chirag Patney: 09:41 Yeah. I think that changes nation to nation, which is kind of interesting because we've worked with 16 nations and we've seen that as much as there may be some similarities, every single community is facing different challenges to some respect. That's based on a whole bunch of factors, like where they're located, the resources that they have available to them, the number of people that are in their community because it changes from a community that may have a couple hundred people to some that have thousands of people. Just that idea of how you manage a small group versus a large group is different. But the role that fishing plays is it's really important to people because, one, it can be a way to practice traditional fishing techniques and continue those on so that that knowledge isn't lost. Chirag Patney: 10:42 And then there's also the economic benefit of it. When you're going out and you have a commercial fishing license, you can go out and you can fish. You can take that fish and then you can sell it and get money for your family, get money for the community and invest in yourself and your people. So there's the social aspect of it and the traditional knowledge aspect where you're continuing that, and then there's the economic aspect of that. Jordan Terpstra: 11:08 That economic return is important, yeah? Chirag Patney: 11:09 Yes. Josh Moran: 11:10 I remember for our pre-meeting that we had a couple of weeks back, something that you said that really stuck out to me is that you said the people's willingness to take you guys on and listen to what you have to say. I was wondering if you could maybe talk about that a little bit because that was really, really impactful. Chirag Patney: 11:28 Yeah. A lot of people may know about the history that Canada, as a nation, has with First Nations communities of colonization and that colonial history. They really owe us nothing by wanting to work with us. We're Just another two researchers coming in from an institution. They get many, many people coming in from institutions trying to work with them. So they really owe us nothing. Even then they let us come in. They talk to us like just regular people. They want to have conversations. They want to have fun. They want to talk. They want to work with you. They're interested in things that you're doing because there are instances where what we're doing as researchers, we get funding. We get money. We apply for grants. But First Nations communities may not have the capacity or the people in place to do the same. Chirag Patney: 12:30 They come at it with the knowledge and sometimes we come at it with the ability to get money. But yeah. They're really open. They're welcoming. We actually visited a community. It's called Shawanaga First Nation. They're just north of Parry Sound. They invited us up and they took us out on their boat. They showed us their traditional fishing areas. They showed us the things that they're doing in trying to work with local school boards to educate their youth to ensure that their youth know about traditional fishing practices and they know how to actually fish without harming the fish, and all of these other things that they're doing to ensure that their culture continually grows and sustains itself. I got onto this project in January, so before that I had no formal work that I've done with First Nations communities. It was kind of just personal interest and some desktop research for a school project. So this is a very humbling experience to me. Jordan Terpstra: 13:34 You mentioned you and one other researcher. Who is that other researcher that you're working with? Chirag Patney: 13:38 Oh yeah. My advisor and also the partner on this research is Dr. Nicolas Brunet. He's the primary investigator on this research, but actually we have quite a large research team, I want to say. We have myself, Dr. Nick Brunet. And then we also have a few other professors from Guelph. So we have Dr. Steve Crawford, Dr. Phil Loring, Dr. Sherry Longboat, Hannah, I forgot her last name. That's okay. Hi Hannah. And then we had two researchers who've actually left us and moved on from the institution since the project started a few years ago. Jordan Terpstra: 14:21 Pretty cool. Josh Moran: 14:22 Very nice. I'm just kind of curious, the current regulations that are in place with the fisheries, are they by any means failing to represent these indigenous values? Chirag Patney: 14:37 It's not so much that they're failing ... Actually, yes, they might be failing to represent indigenous values. It's more so that they were developed not keeping certain things in mind. One of the largest pieces of legislation that governs fishing in Canada, and then it's divided up by province, is the Fisheries Act in Canada. And then under that each province has its own regulations. Through those regulations, one of the things that was established was these Aboriginal Communal Fishing Licenses, ACFLs people refer to it. It's easier to say. What that allows is, or what that says is people in the community that want to go out to fish for food, for social reasons, for ceremony and for commercial purposes are designated an Aboriginal Communal Fishing License which says that these individuals have an inherent right to go out on the land and fish so they can support themselves economically and for food. Chirag Patney: 15:47 But what happened was when these were created, there was a lot of discussion or a lot of ... yeah, a lot of discussion that happened. There's certain communities that are okay with them. So there's communities that are like, "Yeah, we'll operate under these Aboriginal Communal Fishing Licenses." And then there's communities that are saying, "Well, why? Why should we police something? Why should we regulate something that was given to us at birth? why should we regulate something that is inherently our right as indigenous peoples to do? Why do we need a license to be able to go out and provide for our families? Why should we have a license to provide fish for ceremonies where fish is a very important part of many ceremonies that happen in First Nations. Josh Moran: 16:40 That's an interesting point to bring up when you say that these communities aren't always going to reflect the exact same values or the exact same viewpoints. That's the same way from writing when it comes to politics and Canada too, right? You've got to realize that there's no one all end all solution for everything across the board. So on that note, what are some of the hands-on sort of work that you're doing in these communities and how are you trying to work towards improving integrating more indigenous values at these fisheries? Chirag Patney: 17:12 We started with trying to get an understanding of what's actually happening. That's why I, to be honest, don't have a background in fishing per se, but I had an interest in governance. I had an interest in policy. So that's kind of where I was brought onto this project. We've interviewed a whole bunch of First Nations and tried to get an understanding of what's going on, what challenges they're facing, what barriers are in place, holding them back. The hands-on work that we're doing is hard to do on a very large scale. It's hard to have a community all the way down the St. Lawrence versus all the way up at Lake Superior to work hands-on with all of them. So what we've ended up doing is actually working with a couple communities very, very heavily on a community level. Chirag Patney: 18:00 One thing that we're doing is, as I mentioned earlier, is we're creating this documentary. Shawanaga First Nation has this incredible hatchery operation where their hatchery operation reflects their cultural values. So what they do is they go out to traditional fishing areas and they harvest these fish for the eggs. Then they take these eggs, put them in their hatchery tubes, and from there they develop them into small fingerlings. And then from there they're released back into the water system, which is along Georgian Bay. But what we're doing with that is we're trying to help them grow that operation. They have ideas in mind of what they want to see happen in the next few years. What we're doing is we're trying to help them get there, not really faster, but just get there, period. Chirag Patney: 19:06 There's a lot of misconception out there regarding indigenous communities, misconception out there regarding what they do, how they operate. This documentary that we're going to film is actually going to be ... It's going to be short, I want to say, 15 to 20 minutes long. It'll be published and it'll be a way for the community to show off their hatchery operation, show what they're doing, show how they're doing it, and connect with people outside of the community to relieve some of those perceptions that people may have, so people are actually informed. They're educated about what's going on, and that hopefully helps build some connections for the future. Josh Moran: 19:52 You mentioned earlier you speak to governance and policy a lot. I'm wondering if there's an idea for policy that you would have in mind you think that could improve the situation regarding fisheries. Chirag Patney: 20:05 Perhaps. I wouldn't say I'm an expert, by any means. I'm only a 23-year-old student, but there's some things that happen that have worked well for some communities and some things that haven't worked so well. In the United States portion of the Great Lakes or the Great Lakes Basin, they have more regional governance. So they have a lot of First Nations that have partnered together to create guardian programs where they collectively monitor and assess what's going on in the Great Lakes. They monitor things like water contaminant levels, fish toxicity, fish population levels, and a whole bunch of other things. Chirag Patney: 20:47 What happens there is you get all of these First Nations kind of gaining back some of that regulatory power that they had before colonial history happened. You don't see a lot of that in Canada, just the way that our system has been set up for so long. Each First Nation is kind of individualized in Ontario, so they're seen as on their own. But what would be interesting to see and what was like a precursor to this project a long time ago was the idea of guardian programs being here in Ontario, seeing First Nations on a large scale collectively come together to manage the Great Lakes and the water and the fish within to see everything that's happening on a large scale, because as much as you might see a fish in your local river, that local river's probably draining into the Great Lakes at some point. Chirag Patney: 21:48 That fish can travel anywhere from a couple kilometers to 30, 40, 50 kilometers down that river. Some have even been seen a hundred and something kilometers down the river. So it's important that you're not just managing your portion of it. We collectively manage this on a much larger scale. Jordan Terpstra: 22:10 I have a question about your documentary. I think it's a unique approach to research and I can't think of many master's researchers who are doing a documentary with their research. So how did you come up with that approach and what made you decide to take that route? Chirag Patney: 22:25 I mentioned earlier that what we're doing is helping the community with what they want to do. Our initial idea was to host a gathering where we would bring together a bunch of leaders from these communities that we've partnered with and sit them down in a room and they'd be able to have conversation and talk about some of these regional governance aspects. But that didn't pan out specifically as we were hoping. Through that, we were having conversations with Shawanaga First Nation because they were so welcoming to us and trying to see what they needed. They brought up the idea of this documentary to us. It just so happened that we have resources in place to help this happen. Chirag Patney: 23:14 We have the camera equipment. We have individuals on the team that know how to do things on the Adobe Creative Suite with regards to video editing. So like I said, as researchers, we have the resources and as First Nations, they know what they need. They know the issues that they're facing. They know the challenges they're facing. They know what they need to do to overcome them. But oftentimes they just don't have the resources in place to do so. Josh Moran: 23:44 It's good. It's good to give the opportunity to not only do something effective but do something the way that they want to do it, right? Chirag Patney: 23:50 Yeah. Josh Moran: 23:51 That's how you find sustainability and solutions. I like that a lot. I really do like that. Now I'm wondering that in your opinion, what do you think would be the most beneficial aspect to restoring that regulatory power in these indigenous communities? Chirag Patney: 24:11 That's a great question. There was this really cool thing I heard. There was an individual that came and spoke to us during a class lecture, I want to say a few months ago, maybe a year ago. He worked with First Nations communities now for 25, 30 years in industry as a professional. We asked him, "What's the end goal of your job? What are you looking forward to?" He said that his goal was to work himself out of a job, which I found really interesting. So we asked him a little bit about what that meant and he said that his idea is to restore the power that First Nations once had over their fisheries and once had over their community and that those laws and those governance structures that were so indicative of their values that they've slowly lost over time with the coming in of colonial laws and Western science and such. Chirag Patney: 25:14 So his idea was to work himself out of a job. He was helping these communities with management strategy, with governance strategy, consultation. But eventually if they were able to do that by themselves, there would be no reason for him to be working. So I thought that was really cool. But I think one thing would be it gives back to the people what they've always had. Every person wants to go out. They want to be able to live the life that they want to live that they lived for so long, but then it was taken away from them. As Canada, we signed onto the UN Declaration for the Rights of Indigenous People and we've said that as a nation we are for reconciliation. Chirag Patney: 26:05 We are for reconciling what we've done to indigenous peoples over, hundreds of years and ensuring that they have what they always had. They had that regulatory power, that governance, that culture that they've had for so long and just allowing them to actually practice it to the level that they want to. Josh Moran: 26:24 What would a positive result look like for you? What would you consider successful in terms of this project? Chirag Patney: 26:32 In terms of this project what I would consider successful would be just helping one community. At this point, looking on a much larger scale, that would be a project that would years and years and a lot of money and a lot of government support. But right now what I would like to see would be us helping just one community and then building from there and helping another and just continually helping one community at a time and ensuring that they have what they need and the resources available to them to meet some of the objectives and goals that they have in mind for their community. Josh Moran: 27:08 The steps turn into kilometers that turn into a hundreds of kilometers. I like the idea of moving forward like that. That's smart. Sustainable too. Chirag Patney: 27:16 Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. We once had a big goal and now we're delving down into a more community-level goal. Josh Moran: 27:23 So you're doing this in relation to fisheries. Are there any projects relating to other aspects of indigenous communities that are delving down this same sort of path that you're on with this reconciliation? Chirag Patney: 27:36 Oh yeah. There's tons. In looking at PhD programs, it was really interesting and exciting to see the amount of researchers at other institutions and at Guelph too that are researching and looking into helping indigenous communities through varying different ways, whether it'd be through fisheries or it'd be through forestry or it be through medicine or foods, or whatever it may be. There's a lot of researchers out there looking into this. There's actually a conversation at this institution. There is, I think, at University of Manitoba, I want to say. Every undergraduate student there is required to take a course that teaches them about colonial history and indigenous experiences and relations and stuff like that. There's actually a conversation at the University of Guelph to do the same, so every undergraduate course or every undergraduate student required in some form, whether it be online or in class, to take something that teaches them about this history that unfortunately a lot of students don't get in high school. Josh Moran: 28:50 Speaking to no two communities being the same, no two individuals are the same as well. I'm sure you've probably faced a variety of challenges running through them. I know you spoke to that 70% cut earlier. I'm wondering what are some of the challenges that you faced with a project like this? Chirag Patney: 29:10 With a project like this, I think one of the things is people don't quite understand how busy some First Nations are with respect to some of the funding that they get from provincial or federal governments for projects that they're trying to do, or just how few people there are actually managing or leading a community. They're are all kind of overworked. A hard thing to do here is try to toss another thing on their plate, so what we're trying to do is spearhead a lot of this. The First nation is coming up with ideas. They're telling us what they need. What we're doing is we're providing the resources to get it done. There's a lot, especially with funding requirements when they apply for projects or something, there's a lot of reporting back. There's a lot of writing that happens in First Nations where they're constantly just reporting back about what they're doing and how they're doing it, and that makes it difficult for them to find time to do other things. Josh Moran: 30:23 What's the most rewarding aspect of the work you get to do? Chirag Patney: 30:26 The most rewarding aspect? People. It's just so much fun to be welcomed into a community. I'm actually, for the first time in my life, I'm going to be attending a powwow this weekend at Shawanaga First Nation. They invited us up. I've never attended this, but I'm incredibly excited because it's a very large event for them. They're inviting individuals from various communities around them and from various larger cities around them to come down to them for the weekend and engage themselves with their culture, with their values, with their traditional event. I think that's amazing. I think that aspect of it, being able to build a connection with people is just fun. Josh Moran: 31:16 That's awesome. I think the work that you're doing is so admirable in a lot of ways. I'm sure we understand this to an extent too, working in agriculture, it's hard to speak for a smaller portion of the population, and sometimes it's hard to have that voice. So to work towards giving people that voice is, a really, really good thing. Thank you for doing the work that you do. Chirag Patney: 31:41 Thank you for saying that. Josh Moran: 31:45 Now, we're kind of hitting our time. We'll leave you off with maybe just a few more questions just to tie things off. You're okay with that? Chirag Patney: 31:54 Yeah, absolutely. Josh Moran: 31:55 Or maybe before we do that, is there anything else you want to say or cover regarding the research? Anything we didn't get? Chirag Patney: 32:02 Not at this point. I think that the research is at a stage where we're trying to figure out what our next steps are. We're working towards this documentary, but there's also the idea of applying for more funding in the future or applying for more resources in the future to work with communities on a more individual basis. Right now we're working with one community, but trying to work with some other ones as well. Josh Moran: 32:27 Very, very good. So I guess I'll tie it off with these last three questions. Chirag Patney: 32:32 Yeah. Josh Moran: 32:32 What would you say to someone who's interested in working in a rural development or a similar area of research, like your area? Chirag Patney: 32:42 One of the really amazing things about our program is that it's so ... Even though it may not be specifically interdisciplinary, but when you're actually in it, it is. You're able to walk in and research anything from agriculture to something very science-heavy to something that's policy-focused or something that's working with First Nations. It kind of just allows you to find what you're interested in and move forward with that. We got a lot of focus. Guelph is actually the only school that has a rural development and planning program or rural planning and development program. Chirag Patney: 33:21 All other schools, Waterloo, Ryerson, and Queens, UFT, wherever, they all have urban planning programs. So getting into rural development and rural planning is kind of unique to the University of Guelph. I think that the urban centers, they get a lot of focus. There's a lot of people there, understandably, but there's also a lot of planners there. There's also a lot of designers and kind of understanding that rural communities have a much different experience and a much different worldview than some urban communities may have. It's important to also give them our attention and provide them with the resource that they need to succeed. Josh Moran: 34:01 That's so important. I know if my family back home is listening to this, they're going to appreciate that so much. As somebody that grew up in a town of 400, then moving to a town that had 50 people in it, I can say that that's a great answer. Josh Moran: 34:15 Thank you. Anyways, I know you have a really big weekend coming up there, but I'm wondering if there's anything else going on that's exciting that you want to share. Chirag Patney: 34:24 I think this documentary. I've never filmed anything on this scale before. I filmed a few things for the university before and done some projects that are department-specific, but I'm excited to see what people have to say, and do some cool filming and produce something that's really exciting to watch and also shares the history and the knowledge that these people hold with a much larger audience. Josh Moran: 34:52 I look very forward to watching this one. Jordan Terpstra: 34:55 Yeah, me too. Looking forward to seeing all your research. For sure. Josh Moran: 34:59 Yeah. For those of you listening who are curious as to the name of the documentary and where it can be found, it is currently in the early stages of its development, so it's not yet available. But if you want to hear it and see it later on down the line, you can follow some social media handles that we'll have in the show notes, including at SEDRD, which is the School of Environmental Design and Rural Development, as well as the Ontario Agricultural College's Twitter. Josh Moran: 35:24 For the last question I'll ask you if you have any shout outs you'd like to give? Chirag Patney: 35:29 Shout outs. Well, my friends were saying sit down one night and all of them would sit down together and have a listening party to this podcast. So that'll be a very interesting night. So shout out to all of them, and then of course my family and my friends and this research team that's done some great work so far. I'm excited to continue on doing research in this realm with them. Josh Moran: 35:55 That's great. Thanks again for being on. This is a super cool topic that I knew nearly nothing about until actually approaching your advisor, asking if there was any grad students in SEDRD that that would be willing to share information. I'm more than happy to have you on. It's been a great experience. So thank you very much. Chirag Patney: 36:12 Yeah, absolutely. Thank you so much for having me. This has been fun. Josh Moran: 36:15 Awesome. Well, from Jordan Terpstra and I and our new friend, Chirag, have a great one, everyone, and until next time. Josh Moran: 36:26 The Why & How Podcast is published by the Ontario Agricultural College of the University of Guelph. It is produced by Stephanie Craig and Jordan Terpstra. Recording and editing done by Jakub Hyzyk and Kyle Ritchie. The host is me, Josh Moran. Funding for this episode was provided by the WS Young Memorial Communications Grant through the OAC Alumni Foundation.