Meagan King (00:00): I think it's quite reasonable to assume how people are doing affects how their animals are doing or vice versa, because it's a farmer's whole life, their farm. So I think it's very connected, how they feel can affect how they are able to manage animals. But also I think they feel a big connection with their animal health and how that reflects how they're doing as a farmer. Graeme Li (00:34): You're listening to the Why and How Podcast, produced by the Ontario Agricultural College, at University of Guelph, where we look to answer big questions in agriculture, food, and the environment, through casual conversations rooted in research. Graeme Li (00:49): Hey Jordan, how's it going? Jordan Terpstra (00:50): Hey Graeme, I'm going well today, how are you doing? Graeme Li (00:52): Good. What an episode that was? Jordan Terpstra (00:55): Yeah, it was a good episode. So for our listeners, we're trying something a little bit different this episode. So we are actually recording our intro after we have recorded the episode. So we thought this would be an interesting way just to reflect on how the episode went and introduce the guest. So Graeme, why don't you tell us a little bit about our guests, who we'll be talking with today, Meagan King? Graeme Li (01:15): Yeah. Today we spoke with Meagan King. She was a post-doctoral researcher at the University of Guelph in the Animal Bioscience Department. But now she's unfortunately left us to become an Assistant Professor at the University of Manitoba. While at Guelph, she worked with professor Trevor DeVries on how health, as well as farmer mental health and overall herd health. And thankfully for me, she got to answer all my cow basic questions, which was really awesome. Jordan Terpstra (01:45): So Graeme, what was one of your highlights from our conversation with Meagan? Graeme Li (01:48): Oh, I loved hearing about the automated milkers. Those things are cool. Jordan Terpstra (01:52): Yeah, it was pretty neat. I think the great thing was that Meagan provided us a little bit of that cow 101, understanding a bit more about dairy science, but then obviously she got to talk to us about her really cool research, where she is starting to make some connections with farmers mental health and automation and herd health as well. So it's actually pretty cool that some of her research is starting to be featured elsewhere and was actually featured in the Globe and Mail, which is awesome. Graeme Li (02:18): Without further ado, let's get into it. Meagan King (02:21): Hi guys. Thanks for having me today. Graeme Li (02:23): And so you have been researching dairy cows, correct? Meagan King (02:27): Yes, sir. Graeme Li (02:28): And why don't we start with an easy question? What is a dairy cow? Because I feel like a lot of people from non-farm backgrounds might not actually know that there are different types of cows out there. Meagan King (02:38): Yeah, absolutely. So the cows that we're most familiar with these days, you have a beef cow or a dairy cow, even though they're similar in many ways. Cows are ruminants, so they ruminate their feed. So they chew it and it's pretty fun, they regurgitate feed that they've previously swallowed. And so that's what makes them different from us, is that they can digest certain things like grass and cellulose that we can't digest. And they have four stomachs. So lucky them. Graeme Li (03:12): And no upper teeth, right? I remember you can stick your hand in a cow mouth. Meagan King (03:17): Oh, you definitely can be bitten. I don't actually remember the last time I've looked at cow's teeth. Graeme Li (03:25): Maybe I'm wrong with that. I just remember they're friendly animals. Meagan King (03:29): Yeah, they are. They are, if they want to be. Graeme Li (03:33): And so why does a dairy cow produce milk? Meagan King (03:35): So it's similar to any mammal, in response to your hormones and reproduction, when they have a baby, they produce milk. Graeme Li (03:45): So at certain times, cows won't be producing milk, even if they are a dairy cow. Correct? Meagan King (03:49): Correct. And people don't always think about that, but a beef cow lactates and a dairy cow lactates, but they don't just permanently lactate, it's for each calf that they have. Graeme Li (04:03): With different types of cows, they produce different quantities of milk. Right? Meagan King (04:07): Yes. And I can depend on so many different things. It can be the breed of the cow. It can be the genetics of that cow within her breed, how old she is, what she's eating and even how efficient she is at turning feed into milk. Right? And then for me, what I look at is if a cow is healthy or if she's sick and how that can impact her milk production. Graeme Li (04:34): And nowadays there are specific breeds that we use for dairy cows, right? The Holsteins traditionally, why do these breeds produce so much more milk than other breeds? Meagan King (04:47): So it's mostly to do with selection, right? Like over time we've been genetically selecting cows for production. And so that's why mostly we do see Holsteins, but there's still a lot of other breeds out there like Jerseys or Guernsey and they may produce less milk, but they have a different quantity of fat or protein within their milk, that might be higher. And so it's good for really cheeses or butter. Graeme Li (05:15): Yummy. I've never been to a dairy barn before. And I'm curious what it looks like inside, because I remember going to the Woodstock Farm Show and the thing that struck me most was one, these giant fans that I think are literally advertised as big ass fans. Meagan King (05:37): They are. Graeme Li (05:38): And also what we'll get into a bit later, but robotic milkers, which seemed like a super cool technology. Meagan King (05:44): Yeah. So there's a huge range out there, right? Like there's what you'd imagine in a painting of a old agrarian barn where it's red barn and what happens mostly in the older systems is the milking equipment is brought to the cows. And so the farmer doesn't milk them by hand, but they do manually attach the clusters or the milking equipment. And so those ones maybe you'll milk four to eight cows at a time, depending how many machines you have. And then there's a newer system, which is a parlor system. And so that's where you walk the cows from their regular area in the barn, and the farmer will walk them two or three times a day in groups to this milking parlor. And that's where they get milked in groups. Graeme Li (06:41): Here. It's like a merry-go-round for cows. Meagan King (06:43): Yeah, they have merry-go-round that are big circles. Those are called rotary parlors. But then they also have kind of two lines on each side of the farmer. And so it's like a herringbone if you've ever laid tile, but it's just like, the cows are kind of on an angle, but they're on each side of you. And then the farmer goes down a few steps so that the cows feet and udder is kind of at eye level. And then that's where they will attach the milking equipment. Jordan Terpstra (07:12): Very cool. So Meagan, I'm actually curious, just a little bit of background on you. What is it that got you into dairy or did you grow up on a dairy farm and were you around agriculture when you were younger? I'm just curious. Meagan King (07:23): So, I wasn't. I grew up in Edmonton. It turns out my grandpa had cows and my grandma worked for the dairy association, but nobody taught me anything about cows until high school, when I went on calls with a large animal vet. So my friend's dad was just the coolest dude I knew. And he mostly works with dairy cows and I guess horses as well. And so I went to a rural school and I learned to kind of fall in love with the country life. Jordan Terpstra (07:59): Very cool. And now remind me, we know that you're a postdoc with Guelph, but did you do your undergrad or masters or PhD at the University of Guelph? Meagan King (08:11): I did both masters and PhD at Guelph, but before that I was at Queens University in Kingston, Ontario, and that is basically where my parents lived. So it was nice because I could kind of stay at home and do my school at the same time. Jordan Terpstra (08:30): Pretty cool. Meagan King (08:32): And that was actually not in dairy science, that was in environmental biology. Because I also really like ecology and nature and all that stuff. Jordan Terpstra (08:42): That's awesome. I can relate to that. I had studied animal biology and then I switched into environmental biology. So I think it's pretty cool. Meagan King (08:47): Oh, look at that. Jordan Terpstra (08:48): It's cool when those two worlds intersect. Right? Because I think a lot of people think they're separate, but there's a lot of connection there with environments and animals. Meagan King (08:57): I kind agree you Jordan. Graeme Li (08:59): Mm-hmm (affirmative). Tons of overlap in agriculture and how it can better benefit the environment these days. And so your research has been focused mostly on the welfare and nutrition of dairy cows, right? Meagan King (09:13): Yes. I would actually say mostly health and welfare with a tiny bit of nutrition. Graeme Li (09:19): So what ways have you been looking at improving the welfare of cows over time? Meagan King (09:23): So what I've been looking at is mostly housing and management. So it's kind of how the barn is designed and what farmers do with what they have, without expecting them to buy something new or totally redesign their barn. So an example of management would be something like what type of bedding they use and how often they clean and replace the bedding or a hove care for the cows. If you can believe it, they actually like cut cows fingernails. Like they do trim their hooves. So things like that, like how often do they do that and how do they take care of the cows feet? Graeme Li (10:07): Is it true that some dairy barns use mattresses for cows? Like that's their bedding? Meagan King (10:12): Yeah. Most of the cows have a mattress or a mat and then they can have bedding on top of that, depending on what it's made out of. But some of them are also water beds. So they kind of displace the cow's weight as she lays down on them. Graeme Li (10:28): That's fancier than my bed. So while researching welfare, how can you tell when a cow is not doing well? Meagan King (10:34): Yeah. The signs might be subtle because a lot of people do say that because the cow is descended from a prey animal, they're going to want to hide their pain from their predators. Right? But there are many subtle signs that you can notice if you know cows and know what you're looking for. So they might be eating less or ruminating less. So chewing their cud less. They might just be laying down all day. And so, you want to cow to get a good amount of rest, but if she's laying down for more than 14 hours in a day, that's probably a sign that she's not feeling great. Meagan King (11:15): You can also tell if a cow is limping and putting less weight on a certain leg than the other. And the last thing I thought you guys would find funny is, you know those keto diets where we'll purposely go into ketosis? Graeme Li (11:31): Yeah. Meagan King (11:31): Well, for cows, it's a bad thing if they're ketotic, because it means they're not getting enough feed, relative to how much milk they're making. And so if a cow is ketotic, some farmers or vets swear that they can smell it on the cow's breath. Graeme Li (11:46): Fascinating. Meagan King (11:48): Yeah. I'm not sure about the last one, I believe them, but I can't smell it. Graeme Li (11:54): I hear that's what happens with humans too. So the science might need some more, but anecdotally it sounds right. Jordan Terpstra (12:02): And honestly, farmers know their animals quite well. So you're saying these are all subtle things to notice, but I think farmers know the animals better than anyone. Right? So yeah, those subtle things could really be a big difference. Meagan King (12:18): Or even the way they're holding their head or their ears. You notice what's different from normal. Graeme Li (12:22): So cow health and cow milk production, does it go hand in hand? Is there a relationship there? Meagan King (12:27): They're definitely related. So a healthy cow will produce more milk. The confusing thing is that there are certain health conditions that a cow can have, where because she's producing so much milk that puts her at risk for a certain condition like ketosis or being very thin. And then as a result, they might become more lean. So it is a bit tricky, but in general, there is a very strong correlation between a healthy cow and a very productive cow. Graeme Li (13:02): Which is why I guess farmers would buy those lovely water beds for a cow. Meagan King (13:06): Yes. Farmers are definitely interested in investing into cow comfort for sure. Graeme Li (13:14): What is a cow's typical day? Like how much time do they spend eating, getting milked, lying down? Meagan King (13:22): So, they generally all synchronize sleeping overnight. So they'll all find a place to get cozy. Basically they get up early in the morning, whenever the farmer feeds them and they generally feed them quite early at maybe 6:00 to 8:00 AM. And they'll feed and... Sorry, I'm talking about robot cows, I guess too. There is a huge difference in the way farmers and cows days are scheduled, if you're in the parlor type of farm or a robot barn, but they do spend about 12 hours a day lying down. Sometimes they're sleeping, sometimes they're ruminating or cuddling each other or allogrooming, where they lick each other. I would say about, I don't know, two hours a day are spent milking. If you include the before and after and all of the transition time. Graeme Li (14:25): I feel like we should back up a bit and talk about the robot cows or the robot farm. Meagan King (14:30): Yeah. [crosstalk 00:14:30]. It's what I'm most familiar with. Graeme Li (14:35): I guess this is the new generation of cow barns potentially, but what is a new farm look like these days? Meagan King (14:44): Yeah, so a new farm is, it's got a nice high ceiling, it's really bright. They all have these curtains on the side where if it's really windy or rainy, they can close the curtains, but otherwise they'll have them open. And then with the robots, basically, it's a big box that the cow walks into. And so the cows walk from their resting and their eating areas over to this robot. And it's not necessarily because they want to be milked, but it's because they know they're going to get a very palatable feed in the robot. And so they'll walk into this box and there's a robotic arm that comes underneath their udder and it has little lasers that kind of locate her tits and attach. And so then while she's milking, she just kind of munches away on her candy. Graeme Li (15:39): And these new systems they allow for data to be harvested, is a one way to put it while the cow's being milked. Correct? Meagan King (15:50): Yes. Tons of data. So how much milk she's producing, how quickly it's flowing through the milk tubes, how much does she eat in that visit? What is the temperature of her milk? Some systems can also look at how much fat and protein is in the milk, and that's important for what we humans want to do with that later on. And it can even tell you about the health of her udder. So if there's a certain amount of cells in the milk that indicate inflammation, it will show you that she potentially has inflammation or an infection in her udder. Graeme Li (16:31): So you can look at these data points and they'll tell you how a cow is performing, I guess. And based off those, you could make changes to their lifestyle? Meagan King (16:44): Yeah. So if you can see that a cow is showing a huge change to where she was yesterday, or if she's doing something totally different than her herdmates, you can tell that there's potentially something wrong. And so if it's a certain type of... There's different variables in your data. And so depending what changes, you can kind of get an idea if it's her udder that might be the problem, or if she's sick in some other way, let's say, and so the farmer can go in and visually check her for the different problems that they think she might have. And then if needed, they'll call the vet in. And that type of thing. Graeme Li (17:29): One of the studies you were looking at and actually conducted was the link between farmer mental health and cow, herd health. Could you tell us a bit more about that? Meagan King (17:38): Yeah. So the general idea was that I think it's quite reasonable to assume how people are doing affects how their animals are doing or vice versa, because it's a farmer's whole life, their farm. So I think it's very connected, how they feel can affect how they are able to manage animals, but also I think they feel a big connection with their animal health and how that reflects how they're doing as a farmer. If that makes sense. Graeme Li (18:14): For sure. So what have been the highlights of the study overall? Meagan King (18:19): Thank you for asking. So we did find these connections between farmer mental health and cow health, when you look at how many cows are laying on a farm. So farmers who had lower stress levels or lower anxiety levels, they had fewer cows that were laying in their farm. Meagan King (18:43): But I also just looked at what sort of things affected the farmers state. And so as expected, females generally have poor mental health. And so they did have greater stress, anxiety, and depression compared to males. We also found that farmers who work mostly alone had greater anxiety and depression. And that kind of make sense if you just think about the effects of isolation and not necessarily having someone to talk through personal problems or work related problems. Meagan King (19:21): And interestingly, we found that those farmers who also had automated feeders, they seem to be less stressed, anxious, and depressed than those who would traditionally feed cows with a tractor and a feed wagon. So maybe there is a benefit of additional automation. I'm not sure for sure to say that, but there's definitely, the farmers have said that as well, that they really enjoy their robots and their automated feeders. Graeme Li (19:52): Interesting. I didn't know you could even run a barn with just one person. Meagan King (19:57): You can, it wouldn't be a large barn. It would be a 60 cow barn. And then even those who work mostly alone, they might say it's the husband. And then the wife will be also working a day job or raising kids on the side. So she'll work sometimes, but not all the time. Or like a father and son combination I've seen, where the one of them will work mostly on the farm. And one of them has a day job, but then comes back and does chores before and after work as well. Graeme Li (20:32): That seems like an incredibly busy life, to keep 60 cows going. Meagan King (20:36): Absolutely. I don't know how they do it. Graeme Li (20:39): During the research, did it show how consumer perceptions about the dairy industry affected farmer mental health? Meagan King (20:47): So my project didn't specifically look at that, but by visiting all these farms, I've been able to talk to farmers and see how they feel. And also there's been previously research that has looked at that. We know that animal welfare is high on the list of things farmers are concerned about, and they want to improve animal welfare for the sake of their cows and their business. But there's also just a lot of pressure from society and consumers about not trusting farmers or their practices. So I think there's just a huge divide between consumers and farmers and the farmers don't necessarily feel included in these discussions or like they're properly understood or supported. And maybe that they're not appreciated by consumers. And so I think that's just one of the several things that they are stressed about with, on any given day. Graeme Li (21:51): Yeah. I feel like a lot of large farms are kind of just lumped in and it's automatically assumed that if you're a big business, you're a factory farm or something, and that at times it can be quite the opposite, especially with the dairy industry because of how well you have to take care of your animals for them to even perform well and give lots of milk. Meagan King (22:16): Yeah. And there's so many factors that go into it, right? And so I think it's just important to not make assumptions based on the size of the farm or whatever preconceived notion you have. And I think it's really good that people care about animals and want to buy products responsibly. I just think it's also good to come at it from an understanding perspective and have respect for the people who really do know what they're doing and they're trying their best to do it better. Jordan Terpstra (22:48): Yeah. And I think that's an interesting point, Meagan, with that preconceived notion that you mentioned, and that I think there is a big disconnect between folks who are buying the food and the folks who are making the food. Do you think that your research with the connection with mental health, do you think that helps some of those conceptions, preconceived conceptions? Because I don't think people think about the human that's behind these farms and that these are people that care about what they're doing and it's their livelihood. So do you think research findings like yours will help the general public be like, "Oh yeah. That is a person behind these products that is doing this." Do you think it kind of helps advance that? Meagan King (23:33): I hope so. It wasn't my goal or my agenda when I started this project. But as I went through the research and writing up the paper and all that type of stuff, I realized that it kind of hopefully has two benefits. So yeah, the first being that people who are not connected to the farm, just come at it with a bit more compassion and understanding that the farmers are trying to do their best and make things better. And that they are already doing a great job. Meagan King (24:11): And so then the second part that I hope farmers take away from this is that they're allowed to take time for themselves and work on their own mental health and take half an hour if they need it. Because in the end, it's important that you take care of yourself in order to properly take care of your animals. And even if they don't think mental health is important, maybe they will focus on making themselves happier, not for their own sake, but maybe for the sake of their animals, if they think that it will impact animal welfare or production. Jordan Terpstra (24:56): So speaking of research and Graeme had mentioned that you are now a new assistant professor at the University of Manitoba. So congratulations on that. So you've mentioned that your research in the past has kind of focused on cow health and welfare, and then you have this research paper that kind of intersects with human mental health. Do you think you will pursue more research in that area, or are you focusing more strictly on animals? Meagan King (25:29): I would love to do both. And I'm planning to do both, assuming that I can get funding to do so. I think anytime we do big survey projects where we look at a lot of different farms and what they're doing and what's working and what isn't working, something I want to add onto that in the future is how is the farmer doing mental healthwise, stresswise? And what are their perceptions of how effective is what they're doing, and say, if they were to make a change, not only does that translate to some sort of benefit for them or their animals, but was it worth the work that went into make that change? So trying to really realize that they're a huge part of this kind of farm ecosystem. Right? Jordan Terpstra (26:24): Yeah. Very cool. Graeme Li (26:25): Awesome. So is that what you'll be doing at the University of Manitoba? Meagan King (26:28): Yeah, I will be looking at animal health and welfare, and I keep saying this, and I don't know if it's really lame, but people are animals too. So there are part of that. Graeme Li (26:39): Definitely true. Jordan Terpstra (26:40): So Meagan, you kind of alluded to kind of your goals with that one paper. And I'm curious, like, what are the next steps with those findings or is that kind of out of out of your reach? Like, is there some action that can happen after that discovery? Meagan King (26:59): In terms of action, from a research standpoint, I think there's a ton of things we still don't know, and it would be beneficial to people like me who are interested in making things better. And I hope interesting to farmers to see what are all of these factors that impact their mental health and how that's related to the way they manage their farm and how their animals are doing. Meagan King (27:25): And so I hope that in future studies, I can look at different types of dairy barns. Do you have a robot versus a regular parlor? Are you a beef farmer or a pork farmer or an egg farmer? And there's, I think a potentially huge benefit of supply management for certain industries, who are regulated. So I'm curious if that helps a farmer mental health. So I think there's a ton of research to be done and the most important thing isn't the research itself, but it's that communication with farmers and getting them thinking about it and making changes if they think that they need to make changes in their lives. Jordan Terpstra (28:16): And I'm actually curious. So I'm assuming you do work a lot with farmers, like pretty close with them. So what's your favorite thing about working with farmers? Meagan King (28:25): Farmers are just really welcoming once they realize what you're all about. So they know I'm there to research cow health. And I think they're just so accommodating and welcoming, even if they're a quiet type or whatever, they've always been really willing to help me with my studies. And I think that just shows that they're willing to have a stranger from the university, but they're willing to have me on their farm and let me see what type of data I can collect to improve the dairy industry as a whole. Graeme Li (29:07): And I'm just curious, not that this is your expertise or anything, but if you had any ideas on how to improve farmer mental health? Meagan King (29:16): Yeah. There are training programs out there to improve mental health literacy or to just give people an idea of what to look at or how to reach out to each other. I'm not sure the exact names of them, but there are some really great organizations like the Do More Ag Foundation. Ag, as in agriculture. And there are more and more groups through the different agricultural industry sectors that are branching into the mental health part now and trying to provide services to farmers. I think just the big issue is funding. And the fact that everyone is spread out so far and a lot of us don't have great internet. So that's just one of the many stressors in even trying to access mental health help if you're even willing to do so. Graeme Li (30:19): Well, Meagan, I'd like to thank you for being with us today. Just one last question. What's your favorite cow story? I worked one time in a field with cows and these were like some teenage juvenile cows and they were just keep eating my sweater. It was amazing. Meagan King (30:37): What are my favorite cow stories? They definitely eat your sweater and your hair. I guess the one thing you have to be careful with cows is if they're in heat, they tend to be a bit goofy and aggressive or some spectrum in between. And so I do remember a few hilarious instances where myself and my research helpers were basically out running cows in heat because they just hook onto you and they decide that... I don't know if they want to attack you or jump on you, but you've got to watch out or you're just getting protection under any bar or divider that you can. Jordan Terpstra (31:23): I'm sure in your area of research, working with live animals definitely has its comical days. I'm sure there's a little bit of laughter every day, versus- Meagan King (31:32): It's comical, it's frustrating. Nothing ever is as simple as you think. And it takes longer than you think, which I realize is the entire world, but multiply that by five when you're working with animals. Graeme Li (31:48): All right. Once again, thanks for being with us today. Are there any shoutouts or thank yous you'd like to make Meagan King (31:54): Sure. I would like to thank my lab, we call ourselves Cow Crew. And so specifically I'd like to think my PhD advisor, Trevor DeVries, who was an awesome advisor. And also my author on this paper was Robert Mattson who did his master's degree at the University of Guelph. Jordan Terpstra (32:16): That's great. Graeme Li (32:16): And I'm sure the Cow Crew wishes you well on your next journey to Winnipeg. Meagan King (32:21): Thank you. Yeah, they do. Jordan Terpstra (32:22): Yeah. Thank you so much again, Meagan, it's been great talking with you and we wish you all the best and good luck at the University of Manitoba. Super exciting to see Guelph folks all around the country. And I know I personally will be keeping an eye out for some future research from you. So I look forward to that. Meagan King (32:39): Thank you so much. And thank you for having me and I hope you guys take care. Jordan Terpstra (32:43): Yeah, you too. Graeme Li (32:44): Thanks for listening everybody. See you next time. Graeme Li (32:49): The white house podcast published by the Ontario Agricultural College, University of Guelph. It is produced by Stephanie Craig and Jordan Terpstra. Recording and editing by Jakub Hyzyk and Kyle Ritchie. The host is me Graeme Li. If you liked what you heard, be sure to leave us a review and subscribe. Thanks for listening.