Sage Handler (00:03):
The environmentalist in me definitely just wants to say that we should love and appreciate bees for their intrinsic value, just because they are creatures of the earth. And so, along with that, they're really important for pollinating many of our wild flowers and really keeping ecosystems healthy. But as well as that, we have a lot of people on this planet to feed, and bees are responsible for helping to pollinate something like 87% of our most important crops. So, really, we should love them both because they're beautiful and a part of nature, but also because they have a big part to play in feeding us.

Graeme Li (00:40):
You're listening to the Why and How Podcast, produced by the Ontario Agricultural College of the University of Guelph, where we look to answer big questions in agriculture, food, and the environment, through casual conversations rooted in research.

Graeme Li (00:55):
Hey, Jordan, how's it going?

Jordan Terpstra (00:56):
Hey, Graeme. Not too bad. Another day, another podcast. How are you doing today?

Graeme Li (01:01):
Pretty good. Pretty good. Getting ready to move to Vancouver Island, actually.

Jordan Terpstra (01:04):
Really? What's out in Vancouver?

Graeme Li (01:06):
I'm going to be working on a bird of prey sanctuary.

Jordan Terpstra (01:09):
Very cool. Are you still going to be doing our podcast, or is this your official resignation?

Graeme Li (01:13):
This is my official resignation.

Jordan Terpstra (01:15):
Oh my goodess.

Graeme Li (01:16):
No, I'm kidding. Of course, of course. Got to keep it going.

Jordan Terpstra (01:19):
Very cool. So who are we talking to you today? What are we talking about?

Graeme Li (01:22):
Today we're talking to Sage Handler. She's a Master's student with the University of Guelph School of Environmental Science, and she was recently in the 3MT competition, just like Sarah Stricker. If anyone was listening to that last episode, I know you were. So, she placed just after her in second place for the entire university. And her project is on bees, specifically cavity nesting bees. Sage, how are you doing today?

Sage Handler (01:46):
I'm great. Great to be here. Thanks.

Graeme Li (01:48):
So, could you tell us what your 3MT presentation was on?

Sage Handler (01:52):
Absolutely. My research is about some of our cavity nesting bees in Canada, and cavity nesting bees are a particular group of wild native bees that are solitary and make their homes in hollow plant stems or holes in wood. So, my presentation was all about these bees and how I'm researching them using a community science program called the Bees At Schools Program.

Graeme Li (02:19):
How are these cavity nesting bees different than honeybees?

Sage Handler (02:22):
Well, they're different mainly in two ways. The first is that they don't make honey, so they don't store their food throughout the winter because they don't survive the winter as adults. They have a very short lifespan compared to honeybees. And the second big difference is that they're solitary, so where honeybees would live in a hive with up to 80,000 individuals. Solitary bees live as single bees in their own nest laying their own eggs.

Graeme Li (02:49):
And so, is that like bumblebees? Whenever I see them, they're always alone.

Sage Handler (02:53):
No, bumblebees are actually our other social type of bees here in Canada. They live in nests of a couple hundred individuals, usually, and they have a queen bee just like honey bees, but they don't make honey either.

Graeme Li (03:07):
No way. Okay. I wonder why I always see them alone. So, could you talk a little bit about these bee hotels that you were building for them? What do they look like?

Sage Handler (03:15):
Bee hotels come in all shapes and sizes. If you're making one at home, it would probably be made out of a block of wood or some bamboo shoots all tied together. But the ones that I made were for a scientific study, so they had to look identical. And so, the way we made them was we had pieces of PVC piping that held our individual little cardboard tubes that the bees would nest in, and so each nest had 30 individual tubes that a single bee would use in three different sizes. So, for all sorts of different sizes of bees, they would have a welcoming home.

Graeme Li (03:51):
And do you put anything else inside the bee hotels to give them something to build their nest out of, or not?

Sage Handler (03:59):
No, we don't. There are a couple of different types of materials that the bees would use, and that is dependent on what type of bee they are. So, there are leaf cutting bees that will collect their own pieces of leaves to make their nests in, or there are a mason bees that use soil from the surrounding area to make their nests. So, these empty tubes are usable by any different type of cavity nesting bee.

Graeme Li (04:20):
And is cavity nesting bee a species, or is it a group of bees?

Sage Handler (04:24):
Yeah, it's a group of bees. There are over a hundred different species of cavity nesting bees in Canada.

Graeme Li (04:31):
Interesting. And so, you gave these bee hotels to schools, correct?

Sage Handler (04:35):
Yes, that's correct. I had over 200 bee hotels installed at schools this year, although I can't really say at schools because many schools were not happening in-person because of the pandemic, so a lot of my teachers actually kept their bee hotels at their home property and sent online updates to their classes.

Graeme Li (04:55):
What is it like working with schools to conduct science?Do you help them prepare material that they can share in class about these projects and stuff?

Sage Handler (05:04):
A little bit. That was something new for me, and I really discovered a love for educating through it because working with kids is so much fun. They're not afraid to ask questions, and they always love learning. So, I got to do a few online presentations with classes, which was cool because I couldn't have done that unless we were learning virtually this year. So, I did some presentations and also provided some activities that students could do in their own backyard to look for a bee habitat around them.

Graeme Li (05:33):
Once you give them the bee hotel, then they send you data in what way? Or do they just send you the bee hotel back?

Sage Handler (05:40):
Yeah. So, the bee hotel is sent to them at the beginning of the year, they put it up around May, and at that time they'll send me some measurements like how high it's installed, what direction it's facing, and then the hotel just stays up all throughout the summer to invite some bees in. And then, at the end of August, the bee hotels were sent back to me at the University of Guelph so that I could analyze the occupants here.

Graeme Li (06:04):
So, you use DNA barcoding to analyze your results, correct?

Sage Handler (06:08):
Yes. That's correct. And DNA barcoding is a really cool way of identifying a species. So, just like an apple has a unique barcode at the grocery store, every species has a short, unique piece of DNA inside them that we can read to identify them.

Graeme Li (06:25):
And that's using techniques like PCR, or polymerase chain reaction. Right?

Sage Handler (06:29):
Yes, exactly. So, there are three main steps to DNA barcoding. The first is extracting the DNA, and then once we have the DNA extracted, we'll run it through the PCR machine to amplify it so we have a highly concentrated amount of it. And then, it'll go through the DNA sequencing machine, and that will tell us what kind of animal it is.

Graeme Li (06:48):
So, so far, what kind of animals have you been finding in there?

Sage Handler (06:51):
Well, the difficult thing about doing research right now is that I don't have any results because our labs were closed for the pandemic for so long that I am really far behind on my research.

Graeme Li (07:02):
Any news on when you're going to get in, or still waiting?

Sage Handler (07:05):
Yeah. We're still waiting. I'll be sending off my DNA, hopefully, within this month, and then I'll get my results back pretty quickly. And then it's just a bit of playing around with them on the computer, and then I'll find out what kind of insects they are.

Graeme Li (07:20):
That's cool. And you're also analyzing what they're eating, correct?

Sage Handler (07:24):
Yes. I'm analyzing what kinds of flowers they are collecting pollen from, and I'm also going to be analyzing any kinds of wasps that are also nesting in these bee hotels, because we have a lot of solitary wasps that are around here in Canada, as well. And sometimes these solitary wasps have parasitic relationships with the bees, and so we thought it would be really interesting if we could find these kinds of relationships, as well. So, both the plant/pollinator relationships and the parasitic relationships.

Jordan Terpstra (07:53):
Could you tell us little bit more about that parasitic relationship, because a lot of our followers or listeners might not necessarily know what you mean by a parasitic relationship.

Sage Handler (08:02):
Absolutely. So, parasites are pretty interesting. When we have bee laying in our hotel, that bee will lay somewhere between eight and 12 eggs in a single tube, and so they'll all be in a row. And then after that's finished, the adult bee will usually die, so those eggs are left on their own. And then sometimes a parasitic wasp, or even a parasitic bee will come along and lay its eggs on top of those bee eggs, and so their eggs, these parasitic eggs, will hatch first and they will consume either the bee egg or the pollen around it as their food source. So, without doing any work and having to build the nest or collect the pollen for food, these parasites provide a home for their eggs.

Graeme Li (08:46):
Savage. And then, do those wasps just fly off and grow up, and eventually life cycle repeats?

Sage Handler (08:53):
Yep. They just keep their thing. So, I've opened up all of the nests that I've received from last year, and sometimes there'll be different looking larvae, so the larvae at the very end of the nest will look different from the ones in the beginning. And so, that tells me that something was parasitizing in there and we're going to get multiple types of insects living in that tube.

Graeme Li (09:15):
How do you find out what pollen grains there are lying around and what they've been eating? Because from what I understand, a pollen grain is very, very small.

Sage Handler (09:25):
Yes. Yes. So, I'm very lucky to be using DNA barcoding on the pollen, as well, because pollen is traditionally very hard to identify. And so, when I'm running my insect larvae through DNA barcoding, I'm also running the pollen. So, this is fairly new thing that we're doing. It's meta barcoding instead of just DNA barcoding. And so, with meta barcoding, we can identify all the different types of insects and plants in one sample together.

Graeme Li (09:56):
Whoa. That's pretty neat.

Sage Handler (09:57):
Yeah.

Graeme Li (09:57):
How is that possible?

Sage Handler (09:59):
So, it's possible because when we go through that PCR step, the polymerase chain reaction, we are adding unique tags, or primers, to each sample. And so, each sample will have this unique little reader on it, and then the samples all go through the sequencing step together. And then, once they're sequenced, we go through a de-multiplexing step where we can read which primer's related to which sample from the beginning, and so we know where each sample came from in terms of which tube it came from. And so, even though they were all lumped together in the same sample, we know where they originated from.

Jordan Terpstra (10:36):
What kind of impact is your research trying to have, or what is the goal with what you're looking at?

Sage Handler (10:43):
Yeah. I've got a few goals in mind, for sure. I'd say the biggest one is really learning more about these cavity nesting bees that are really important for natural ecosystems and agricultural ecosystems, but we don't know very much about them. I mean, one of our concerns with climate change in regards to bees is that they are no longer going to be able to get their food in the place that they normally would have, and so they're going to have to move their habitat. And something like that is important to study, but really hard to study because we don't know enough about them in the first place. So, by learning where our cavity nesting bees are across Canada at this time, I'm hoping that studies like this will continue on and we'll be able to watch if their habitats are shifting or if they're able to stay where they are currently.

Jordan Terpstra (11:27):
Very cool.

Graeme Li (11:27):
Are they very important pollinators?

Sage Handler (11:30):
Yes. So, in terms of agricultural areas, there are actually a couple of types of cavity nesting bees that are not exactly domesticated, but are used for mass pollination. So, we have a type of leaf cutter be called the alfalfa bee, which is really good at pollinating alfalfa. And we have some mason bees that are also used. They take bee hotels and put them out in the fields and so they can be used for pollination instead of honeybees. And they're better than honeybees in some crops.

Graeme Li (12:01):
What is a mason bee?

Sage Handler (12:02):
A mason bee is a solitary bee that uses mud as their nest building materials. So, instead of leaves, it's just mud.

Graeme Li (12:11):
And they live in the ground, I assume.

Sage Handler (12:13):
Mason bees actually live in cavities just like leaf cutting bees. So, I find mason bees in my bee hotels.

Graeme Li (12:18):
Oh, cool. And leaf cutting bees, they literally cut leaves for their hives or their dwellings?

Sage Handler (12:26):
Yes, exactly. They have really sharp teeth, or mandibles, so they're great at cutting little semi-circles out of leaves, and then you can see them flying back to their cavity to make little nest out of them.

Graeme Li (12:37):
And are these solitary bees too?

Sage Handler (12:39):
Yes, they are.

Jordan Terpstra (12:40):
And they're really cool bees. I would recommend for... I'm a bit of a bee-obsessed person, Sage, and I studied insects and things like that in university, but obviously we can't show video via this platform, but for people to do their own research on leaf cutter bees, I mean bees in general, but the leaf cutter bees are pretty cool, what they're able to do in cutting up the leaves and using them. I would say, go on YouTube and check it out because it's pretty cool.

Sage Handler (13:06):
I 100% agree. They are my favorite type of bee, if I'm allowed to choose a favorite bee, and I actually recently got a tattoo of one because I love them so much.

Jordan Terpstra (13:15):
Amazing. And they're really colorful too, right?

Sage Handler (13:17):
Yes. And very fluffy.

Graeme Li (13:19):
Do all bees have stingers?

Sage Handler (13:21):
No, actually. Only female bees have stingers, so this goes for honeybees and solitary bees.

Graeme Li (13:29):
Okay. And these solitary bees, do they have queens, or they're totally alone, I guess.

Sage Handler (13:33):
Nope. They are totally alone. There are a couple of types of solitary bees that will nest close to one another, so you'll find these nesting aggregations, usually for ground nesting bees, but they still don't share their life cycles with one another, other than the mating process.

Graeme Li (13:50):
Do they communicate with each other like honey bees?

Sage Handler (13:52):
No, honey bees are pretty special in their communication skills.

Graeme Li (13:56):
And so many bee-related questions. This is actually really exciting. What is the importance of bees in these days?

Sage Handler (14:02):
Well, I think that's... There's got to be two answers to that question because the environmentalist in me definitely just wants to say that we should love and appreciate bees for their intrinsic value and just because they are creatures of the earth. And so, along with that, they're really important for pollinating many of our wild flowers and really keeping ecosystems healthy. But as well as that, we have a lot of people on this planet to feed, and bees are responsible for helping to pollinate something like 87% of our most important crops. So, really, we should love them both because they're beautiful and a part of nature, but also because they have a big part to play in feeding us.

Graeme Li (14:43):
So, when are you likely to finish your results? Obviously, I guess, do you get in the lab yourself and do the PCR stuff, or is that sent off to someone?

Sage Handler (14:51):
Nope, I am in the lab most days right now. I'm currently doing my DNA extractions, and I'm hopeful that I'll be finished my lab work by the end of February or mid-March. And I'll be able to send all of my samples away for the sequencing step.

Graeme Li (15:07):
What was it like being a Master's student, like How did the pandemic affect your research from the beginning? Did you have to basically put everything on hold when it occurred in March?

Sage Handler (15:19):
So, March was a really critical time for me because I was constructing these 200 nest boxes in March to send out in April to schools. And so, when schools started shutting down, I had no idea if I'd be able to continue this research, if it would get completely shut down, but I sent an email out to all my prospective teachers who were going to host the nest boxes, and 90% of them said, "Please send us a nest box still. We'd love to host it on our home property." And so, I was really lucky that for the first two months of the shutdown, I was very busy getting these nest boxes made and sent out to teachers and properly installed. So, that was very lucky for me.

Jordan Terpstra (16:03):
It's almost like a win-win, right? Because you're able to educate, the students are able to learn about bees in a different way, teachers are able to have different types of lessons for their class, and then you're also gathering all this information for research. So, I think it's really cool when... I mean, that's kind of part of research, right? Is that extension component. But with the fact that your actual... Your gathering of data, that's all intertwined, so it's a really cool project to hear about, Sage.

Sage Handler (16:29):
Thanks. I love that aspect of my project.

Graeme Li (16:31):
What's it like working in a lab these days?

Sage Handler (16:33):
It's pretty quiet, so unfortunately, it gets a little spooky sometimes, but it does leave me a lot of time to listen to podcasts.

Graeme Li (16:43):
Any good recommendations, like the Why and How Podcast?

Sage Handler (16:45):
Oh, yeah. That's my number one recommendation.

Jordan Terpstra (16:49):
Of course. I did want to mention earlier, as we were talking about extension, you're working with children. For some of our listeners or loyal listeners, we actually had... Sage, you're in Nigel Raine's lab, correct?

Sage Handler (17:02):
Yes.

Jordan Terpstra (17:02):
And we had Alana Pindar on as a guest. I think that was our fourth episode, so we were talking to Alana then about bees. Have you worked much with Alana in the past and a lot of collaboration there, or just in the same lab?

Sage Handler (17:15):
Yeah. I actually started out in a Nigel's lab as an undergrad work study student, and so I was working on the Ontario biomonitoring project, which was more closely related to the stuff that Alana is working on and mirrors the project that she's doing back on the East coast. So, I definitely got to work with her there.

Jordan Terpstra (17:33):
Pretty cool.

Graeme Li (17:34):
How'd you find your way into the lab as an undergraduate? Because I'm an undergrad right now and I'm actually genuinely curious.

Sage Handler (17:39):
That's a great question. So, I was part of the co-op program, and for one of my co-op cycles, it was during the summer semester, and so there was just a whole bunch of different undergraduate research opportunity summer jobs that I applied for in all sorts of different fields, like multiple ones with bees, but also some where I would be standing in a stream catching fish. I didn't really know what I was interested in at that time, but I applied for a whole slew of these summer field work jobs, and that got me into the bees.

Graeme Li (18:12):
What was it like going from an undergraduate research position to a Master's degree? How does it differ in the lab and doing other stuff?

Sage Handler (18:20):
Well, I was pretty lucky working for Nigel because I was given a lot of freedom as to when I would do my work. As long as I got my work done, he was pretty happy. And so, I'd say that's very similar to a Master's position. You have all the time on your hands. Sometimes you know what you need to get done, and sometimes you don't even know what you're trying to accomplish. But it's really a lot about time management and keeping your eye on the big goal, but also breaking it down to smaller, more manageable goals.

Graeme Li (18:48):
So, how did you get into bees? Just because of Nigel Raine's lab?

Sage Handler (18:52):
Well, I've always loved bees. My dad is actually a beekeeper, so when I was younger, I was out in the apiary with him. So, when I saw that there were some summer job postings working with something called wild bees. I had no idea what that meant. I didn't even know that we had other types of bees than honeybees. It just sounded like a very interesting role, so I pursued that one the most strongly as my summer position.

Graeme Li (19:16):
Nice. What was it like growing up on a apiary? One summer, I helped a beekeeper take his honey out of the things and got stung. So, one for one.

Sage Handler (19:25):
Yes. Definitely some stings, but also lots of sugar. The honey harvest was the best time. You would just put full chunks of honeycomb into your mouth, and it was like pure bliss for a kid.

Graeme Li (19:39):
One of the coolest things was taking that hot knife and opening all the honey combs up and just watching it ooze out.

Sage Handler (19:46):
Yeah. It's incredible.

Graeme Li (19:48):
Let's talk a little bit about the 3MT competition. So, why'd you choose to participate in it?

Sage Handler (19:53):
I was actually taking an introductory grad course at the time that required us to write a three minute talk just for the course itself, and so because the school-wide competition coincided at the same time, I thought I should just go for the competition, as well, because I was all ready going to have to make the talk.

Graeme Li (20:12):
Nice way for it to just roll into that, I guess.

Sage Handler (20:14):
Yeah.

Graeme Li (20:15):
What was your process for preparing for it? Just writing that thing out and then some small tweaks?

Sage Handler (20:20):
No, it was a long process. I discovered that the university was putting on a couple of seminars to help grad students prepare for it, so before the seminar, I'd written out my talk and I'd made my slide and I thought it was perfect. And then I went to the seminar and got torn to shreds, basically, which is great. That's part of the learning process. So, I reworked it completely and then practiced about a million times in front of my friends. And by that time, I felt pretty confident about it, and either way, I was proud of the product that I was presenting.

Jordan Terpstra (20:54):
What would you say was your biggest learning experience from that process?

Sage Handler (20:58):
I think the biggest thing was learning that even if I see my slide or if I hear my words a certain way, that's not necessarily the way a lot of other people will hear it. So, Taking feedback from a large variety of people is very beneficial.

Graeme Li (21:14):
So, when are you hoping to wrap up your Master's thesis? And when will we be able to hear about the results?

Sage Handler (21:20):
I'm probably looking at another year from now, just because of the delays in lab work, but I'm really excited to get those results out and especially get those results back to the teachers and students that helped me so much with my project.

Jordan Terpstra (21:36):
Can you tell us just a little bit more about process in how it was for you and any tips for anyone who might potentially be interested in doing something like this for themselves?

Graeme Li (21:44):
Absolutely. I personally really enjoy public speaking and educating, I guess, because I love bees so much. It's really fun for me to talk about it. But I found it very, very challenging to say everything that I wanted to say in just three minutes. That was tough, but I think it was really great practice for everyday life, because few people want to sit there and listen to you talk for 15 or 45 minutes about one specific thing. So, it was great practice for that. And also because the three minute thesis is targeted towards the general audience, you can't use any fancy scientific terminology, And so that really made me sit down and think about what exactly was it that I was doing. And I love that because it helped me further on when I was doing presentations with students as young as grade two, so I found it really useful for that, as well.

Jordan Terpstra (22:37):
So, I'm curious, we were talking a little bit about... I mean, obviously, the realm in which you work in is different from the typical honeybees that everyone thinks of, and I think we actually had asked Alana this as well, but what is the biggest misconception or your biggest frustration when working and educating people in this area of working with bees?

Sage Handler (22:57):
I mean, I think it's definitely that there are so many save the bees campaigns that completely focus on honeybees. And so, honeybees definitely do face threats, but they are in a whole different class than our wild bees. And so, the many people who have good intentions but don't have the right educational tools to learn how to help our wild native bees that really do need help, that is definitely frustrating. But I would say that many people are really happy and excited to learn about our wild bees when they get the chance and are excited to learn what they can do to help. So, it's all about getting good educational materials out there.

Graeme Li (23:36):
How do you promote habitat for these types of bees? Interestingly, I was on a farm that was harvesting berries, called haskaps, this summer, and they were trying to promote honeybees and other natural bees to be able to pollinate their crops. A flower produces the berry, and every single one of those flowers needs to be pollinated in order for them to create berries.

Sage Handler (24:06):
Wow. Yeah. Well, there's the two main things that wild bees need are a place to live and flowers to feed on, so the flowers is the biggest overlap between honeybees and wild bees because both need flowers, but honeybees always have their habitat given to them, that they're given the bee box to live in. So, I think that it's really important to consider flowers being a very constant resource because many of our wild bees are small bodied, so they don't fly nearly as far as honeybees do. And so, making sure that there's constant flowers in terms of area and also constant flowers in terms of when they're blooming, so that there's food available to these bees from early spring until late fall, not just in the summer when there's all ready many, many flowers available to them. So, I'd say that flowers are the most important thing for people to think of.

Sage Handler (24:59):
And then you can also think about habitat. I mean, I use bee hotels for my research, so it's a little bit hypocritical of me to say to people to stay away from them. And they can be useful, but even more so than the hotels, it's important to provide natural habitat for bees. So, keeping a garden a little bit messier, leaving the stems in, in the fall and some soil that you don't disturb for ground nesting bees, that can be really important, as well.

Graeme Li (25:26):
I'll let them know on that farm up in the Yukon. Hopefully they can promote the bees.

Sage Handler (25:31):
Yes, absolutely.

Jordan Terpstra (25:32):
Well, that actually, you mentioned Yukon, and I feel like, Sage, you had mentioned these bees being Canada-wide. Is your research, I can't remember if you said it, is it just focused on Ontario, or are you looking at other areas in Canada, as well?

Sage Handler (25:46):
I actually managed to send my bee hotels to, I think, 12 out of the 13 provinces and territories here in Canada, so we're Canada-wide.

Jordan Terpstra (25:56):
Amazing.

Sage Handler (25:57):
And we did manage to send, to be hotels to the Yukon, however, they both came back empty. And so, that's a difficult thing with this research, is that an empty nest box doesn't necessarily mean that there's no bees there, it just means that maybe they had better places to live right around there, or they were just in a location where they couldn't access that bee hotel. So, it's definitely a challenge of this research, is making sure the nest boxes are set up in a way to capture the bees and then how to analyze these nest boxes that were set up properly but didn't get any bees in any ways.

Graeme Li (26:34):
Sage, I'll let you know, I saw the bees up north. They're real.

Sage Handler (26:37):
You saw them. Good. They're not fake.

Graeme Li (26:39):
It wasn't just bumblebees. There were other ones, too.

Sage Handler (26:41):
That's cool. I'd love to see them one day. Is there any way anyone can reach out to you if they want to get one of these bee boxes?

Graeme Li (26:48):
Absolutely. We have a website at bessatschools.ca, and you can check out my Twitter @handlerofbees.

Sage Handler (26:56):
Great Twitter name.

Graeme Li (26:58):
Thank you.

Sage Handler (26:58):
Thank you very much for being here.

Graeme Li (27:00):
Thanks.

Jordan Terpstra (27:00):
And yes, Sage, thank you so much for joining us today. It's always a pleasure. Personally, it's always a huge pleasure to be able to talk about bees because I am obsessed. Yeah, really wanted to thank you for coming on here today. And good luck with the rest of your research, and hope all things go well.

Graeme Li (27:18):
The Why and How Podcast is published by the Ontario Agricultural College of the University of Guelph. It is produced by Stephanie Cray and Jordan Terpstra. Recording and edited by Jakub Hyzyk and Kyle Ritchie. The host is me, Graeme Li. If you liked what you heard, be sure to leave us a review and subscribe. Thanks for listening.